A Personal Conversation: Part 1

So how do I start? Then? You've had, you've had five months. I know. But I'm trying to realize, wait, how do I like? How do I bring it up? 

How do you bring just I'll bring it up for you in the intro. Don't worry, I got you. We'll see how it goes. OK? And I realize it's still May, but June is right around the corner here of when we come out, these are gonna, these episodes are gonna be the last two weeks of May and I'll say a couple things before we get started here and Aaron's lead in the conversation one after you watch part one or part two or both. 

If you want to have a more one on one conversation with me and you know, me personally feel free to reach out. Let's have that conversation. Don't feel like, oh, I can't have that conversation. We can't talk about that. That's why we're talking about this here to begin with. OK. This is something I talk to Aaron about uh prepared him a little bit back in January. 

Be like, hey, June's coming up. This happens every June. Let's talk about this. This isn't for personal clout for personal. Anything else? It's more along the lines of, hey, this is reality. 

And, uh, I, I asked Erin to lead the conversation and he graciously agreed to lead this conversation. He may feel a little nervous about it. He may not know how to start things off, but that's ok. That being said, if you are happening to listen to this with Children in the room, my recommendation maybe is listen to it first on your own and then decide if it's appropriate to bring Children in on this conversation. 

It's not appropriate for every age. Obviously, that's why there's a big battle controversy ruling in our schools right now about things like this. So use wisdom and discernment. This is really intended for adults in all honesty. But like I said, if, if you know me personally and if you know me personally, you probably have my phone number, reach out. Um if you want to have a further conversation or you have questions or even if you have disagreements, that's fine. I think we can have a conversation about this and I think it could be good that being said, we all know June is Pride Month, ok? And for those of you who are knowing me, you probably going like what the heck is going on. 

You're like, no, and I asked Aaron to lead a conversation or ask the questions that maybe he's want to ask or just wants to ask in general because as Aaron's known, as a couple other guys have known that I've been close to or what a while now. You guys have known this about me, right. Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, because, yeah, I would say so because even like, when, even when, like the last time we had talked about it, it was like, I already had thought to some degree, you pretty much already told me some, some time beforehand. So I was like, wait a minute, I was like, why did you not think? I didn't know this? But then at the same time I was like, oh, maybe you just never really, I guess we're never like, just, like, straight out about it just, I know. Ok. I don't know. It was just like, yeah, so, Aaron's probably been one of the guys that's known probably the longest, um, Josh and Andy, probably second longest in those, in those phrases. Like, who's Josh? Who's that? Oops. Yeah. Oops. Um, those are probably the two that I've known second longest in regards to everything as well. And so let's just get on with it here. 

My name is Paul. I'm a same sex, attracted Christian male. I do not affirm gay marriage. I do not affirm gay relationships. And let's get on with the conversation. 

Aaron off to you. Well, you already answered some of my questions. No. Um, man. Yeah, that's, wow, that's a, more than I thought the intro is gonna be. Um, no. Yeah, I was looking back at it. I mean, I, I thought it was the one time we went to lacrosse and how, how long ago was that though? It was a couple of years ago and, and I told you, I had, at that point when I told you about that I told you I had struggled with it in the past, I tried to make it in the past. 

I didn't say I was still fully engaged with it. Um, it might have been still a part of, you know, what I was going through, but it wasn't the full, this is what I'm doing real issue with. I was still trying to, at that time when we went to lacrosse, I was still trying. This sounds horrible, you know, in all honesty, I probably owe a couple of women some, uh, apologies. 

Uh, so that, that is that I'm, I'm guessing for where you're going. And that's kind of part of like one of my questions that kind of like in here. Um, because like, I guess my first question was gonna be, I was like, for you, I guess, I don't know, like, I guess, did like, I guess when did it start? I guess for you, I guess it was kind of like my question where it's like, where did I guess is you hear some people say no, like you're, you're born this way, sort of thing. Like you were born out the bat, like, just naturally, always had that, I guess that attraction, um, or was it something that developed later on in life? And I guess if obviously however far you kind of want to go into that? Right. Let's break down. Let's break down that question first. Because that one, that one might be a, a little longer one here, for sure. 

Um, yeah, that's an interesting question. People always go, are you bored? You know, because that's a question that's being asked all the time. Are, are people just born that way or are they made that way? Blah, ba, ba ba, I am not of the full, I'm not fully convinced that you're born gay straight or gay or lesbian or whatever, bisexual. Um Now there's been some research that's been done. Um a person that if you're interested in more in this uh Christopher Yuan, great guy to go and listen to. 

I know I've mentioned him before. So if any of you have been paying attention and putting together a piece of, you know, besides Aaron all of a sudden, you're like, wait Chris anyways. So he, he, he doesn't have a phd in genetics or anything. So take this with a grain of salt, you know, he was, did his own research on things, you know, and reading the other studies out there because at one point time magazine actually put out, um you know, a magazine said we found the gay gene, we found the gene that, that makes people gay. Well, when you actually study it, no, they didn't, it doesn't. And even when you have like, twins born with the same genetic code that have this gay gene, it's not a guarantee that both of them will be gay. It's not even, it, it, it, it, most of the time, maybe one is when the other is it? And they're raised in the same environment, same genetics, right? What becomes a differentiator? 

It's things that you do on their own things they're exposed to, you know, things are gonna be slightly different. So born that way, you know, I, I know that's the popular phrase and the trend and the song and that, that's the Lady Gaga song. Born this way. I don't, I don't believe that. Ok, I, what I do believe is we are all born sinful. We are, are, we're all born that way that is in our spiritual and our genetic code, right? 

From the Get Go. Thank you, Adam and Eve. OK. Yeah. Don't screw it up. 

You know that, that, that is definitely something that did happen. We are born that way in that regard. Born gay, bisexual or lesbian. No, I don't think so. Um There are definitely things for me that I think I, as I look back, I, I can definitely see shaped some of that. Some of that was self inflicted, my own sin things I did some of that was nuts. Self inflicted. For example, one thing that I remember that still rings really through my memory. 

I was in uh sixth grade, sixth grade. Yeah. Yeah, man. Going back to middle school, middle school. Yep. Here in uh good old Racine up on the north side because that's where my family lived. 

That's where I went to middle school at. It was real close great. It was science class, sixth grade. I remember this because it was one of the first times I even questioned anything about me. Like, and I'm not saying this is anything that, uh, like this was a revelation or anything but, you know, you know, got kids guys, especially at that age. We're jerks. Yes, there's still are. And I'm using polite language in that because six grade guys are just, we're, we're, we're especially kind of stupid. 

Yeah, let's go with that. Um, but I remember that class, uh, primarily because I don't, you know, I wasn't and still not, uh, one of the very athletic guys, you know, in high school. If you're a guy, you're, you're the athletic, you're the jock, you're the, you're the whatever. I wasn't that I was more the science guy. I was more the guy that enjoyed the cooking in, in that, you know, home in that because, yeah, we had homemade classes. Yeah. See, that's not, that's not what they called me though. Oh, no. Yeah. So it was sixth grade. Science class. I forgot exactly what led up to it, but I remember it was just a bunch of guys and they're being dumb and they're going, you need to stop. 

He, he basically a bunch of gay slurs at me just because you weren't the jock dude and like, something else might have been happening in class. I don't remember exactly what led up to that and that happened and I remember that made me a, it, it upset me greatly. I, I was crying and I left out in the hallway and that, and, you know, that was one of the first things and, and, you know, that kind of stuck around there too. That's what I said. Some of the stuff wasn't my sin, some of it was other things going against me. You know, and then as far as my own sin and I know we talked about this, oh, a few episodes ago. 

You know, it's like, I don't remember exactly how many episodes ago it was but it was in 2023 where we were talking about it and the topic came up like, oh, yeah, the first time found porn and all that. Um, you know, what, for whatever reason and maybe it was part, you know, part of that part of other things, you know, may, you know, there, there's a whole bunch of studies like, oh, you know, people become gay because maybe they don't have a strong male model in their life. Maybe this or this or this and whatever combination is, I don't know where I am, but I, I'll say this from the get go from the get go the porn I found was probably, no, I shouldn't say pride. It, it was of that gay variety. See it. Um One of my, uh I was already just thinking in my head, I was like, even like as kids, I mean, for me when I was, I, I was, I was a little dude, I mean, very curious about things and I mean, even for, and like, for me, I think, oh, what was it? I mean, when I, when I first started, I guess when I kind of like, yeah, when I was introduced to porn, was that a buddy's house? And that was very uncomfortable. 

Um, but then obviously having that door open to me, I was like, oh, now I know what to look at from my computer. So then when I started bringing it to my home, I mean, even, and I guess, like, for me, uh, actually I, I don't know, like, yeah, looking back, I, I, I, I also did dabble in the gay porn site stuff at one point. I don't know if that's, I, I guess, I don't know how, so I came across it but, like, I mean, yeah, being introduced to that at a, like a young age, I mean, that's definitely, that has, that has, that has a effect on you that's gonna warp your taste. Yeah. And, and goodness this is maybe I'm gonna have some own my own moments right here right now. Shoot hot dignity. Um, no, because like that is, um, goodness. 

Yeah, I just, I would like looking back at it now, there's definitely some things like I know I've done and in my password it's like looking back, I was like, dude, this is gross. Um, as far as like now it never, it never got to the point of where there's actually like, I, I guess any like oral or like actual like, well, yeah, no oral or like sort of intercourse happening um as a kid but like, yeah, I, oh goodness, I remember um being with one friend and obviously being at a, at a dude's house. Um We, we had, we had gotten done watching some stuff on TV. We probably shouldn't have been watching as kids or just in general and wanted to, I guess of it, but we didn't go, this sounds horrible right now. Yes, it does. But like we wanted, there, there was, there was definitely that wanting to like to, to have that the curiosity of what, ok. And it didn't involve it, it didn't involve like, yeah, any like actual like intercourse or any like anal like or any stuff like that was more of like just like the physical hugging and stuff like that. And it, it got, it got weird quick and I was like, dude, no. Uh uh, so, but I mean, yeah, I, I, for even for myself, like, I, there was times where, I mean, yeah, I was looking through porn and stuff like that. 

There was a ton of like, gay porn, that stuff that came along the way. And it's crazy how just that little bit, like, I guess for me even like it, it started to warp the mind a little bit. Yeah, it does. And now, and again, this is where, you know, as you, by the way, this is all new to me right now. No. Yeah, this is all new to you. Yeah, I haven't told any of this. 

Like, I'm like, now I'm telling the world so I'm like, OK. Um yeah, how do you take that one? Um gosh. Uh but there, it's just to me like, it's crazy what's out there now for kids. And I mean, you wonder why it's such a big thing because it's so available and read well, readily available and now like kind of as you kind of talked about in the intro for like our schools and whatnot. It's being like there's stuff being taught about, you know, all this gender, I don't know your gender identity and drag races and all that. 

Yeah, it's, and it's only gonna get worse, unfortunately. Um, there's, I'm trying to debate how to, if I should say this or not because there's a lot of Um, yeah, I'm just gonna say whatever. Um, we gave, you gave a fair warning to whoever is watching this. If there's anybody that shouldn't be listening to this, turn it off, turn it off. Yeah. So I'm going to say my experience based on this and I'm only gonna be able to extrapolate based on that to current times that it's probably a lot worse. Ok. So, you know how you're saying, you know, it's getting worse. And then, and I say that too, a the proliferation of porn out there and all of us have a essentially a phone computer in your hands. 

A computer kids see it as the social media porn hub 24 7 access device. Ok. That's why people are getting so upset that Utah is now. It, it's great. I love it. I actually think it should happen more states. Um So Utah recently added in the age verification for access to porn, right? Oh. Oh, yeah, they pass it. 

It's, it's, it's adapted it's going through, right. So porn hub in relation in retaliation blocked all of Utah from getting access to porn hub because they're, they're like, you know, we can't do this validation, blah, blah, blah. And so all these people are getting upset, they're trying to use VPN S to get around the block, all this other stuff. Ok. Going on. I'm like that should be a national wide thing. But that, that starts eating at my Libertarian side. 

Thing regardless of that, you know, so that proliferation that access to the porn. And as you even said, and again, this is all news to me. So I'm like a little, a little in shock over here what's going on? Um I don't know if you had planned to share that or not or just decided to kind of like, came up to my mind as before we started this, I was like, thinking back, I was like, I was like, man, I was like, you've dabbled in some weird stuff to your own. So I was like, shoot, well, that might be the time. Ok. Um But yeah, so yeah, the porn derring, right. 

We, we know that we've seen that in studies and that we've now starting to see guys who are growing up who have been engaged in porn for how decades now. It seems like it, it, it seems like decades. Well, it actually, it is decades. We're, we 2023 the internet was freely available in 20 in 2000 dial up still. But it was freely available and we're starting to get DS L that was really starting to be propagated everywhere. So my earlier years of college and that right there and I hate to admit this. Um It's 1 to 1, there's a lot of things I regret in life. 

There's a lot, this is definitely high on the list. Um I spent a lot of time in chat rooms Oh, ok. Gay chat rooms, gay gay chat rooms. Ok. Yeah. The things that I saw in there, hm, would make most people disgusted, made me disgusted, to be honest. 

Um, that, that was part of the thankfully the thing that got me to start wising up and straightening up and literally pun intended but not fully. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But one of the things that I saw in there that if it was this bad back then, so when I say back then I'm talking early two thousands, imagine how much worse it is now where I saw guys, dads bragging about abusing their kids, kids that were 789 years old. Hm. Those kids stand no chance of having a normal well adjusted life. 

We're all concerned over here about drag queens in schools. We're all concerned about teaching gender identity to little Sam or Samantha in 1st and 2nd grade. Yes. Yeah. Police FBI you need to investigate those rooms more. 

I guarantee you, I guarantee you if you go into one of those rooms. Mhm. Do you look for certain keywords? And I get, and those keywords might have changed over the years. I don't know. Ok. Hopefully they have, I don't know. But if you look at those keywords and for people who talk around those keywords, um, those are the people that you gotta worry about. Hm. And you go, well, not everyone. Yes, not everyone. I agree 100%. I I'm not saying stigmatize the entire gay community, right? 

I'm not saying label every gay person a pedophile. But I'm saying it's enough of a problem back then that now it's still an issue. Look what happened recently on Twitter, someone started posting around hm uh uh the new addition to the LGBT flag basically saying this is the pedophile acceptance flag because it's not bad. It should be accepted. Da da da. People in Minnesota were trying to remove out of the laws that specifically they're removing the pedophile portions from the laws to make them a protected sexual identity map, which we all know minor attractive person is trying to be something that is accepted. 

We're seeing academics now trying to give lectures and papers saying pedophilia is natural. It with the child consents. We're talking about a person who can't consent to things like tattoos or body modifications outside of gender reassignment surgeries and that, but you can't uh you know, they can't, they can't sign up for a social media account. If under 8 13, they can't get a piercing under a certain age, they can't get a tattoo under 18, can't drink under 21 can't buy a firearm to 21. They can't do all these things because these are adult things, but yet they somehow can somehow consent to, to sex with another guy to changing their gender, to taking hormone blockers. Are you kidding me? And we wonder why it's getting worse now here's the thing and then I wanna make this crystal clear. But first off before we go anywhere else. Mhm. I believe in, in the Christian tradition of man, woman, sex, marriage. Well, yeah. Yeah. Marriage, sex. I'm just, I'm just listening to all these I think. Right. I understand that there are gonna be people outside the Christian community or like, well, I'm committed to my same sex partner in a marriage, whatever. 

This might sound a little weird in the con in the context. But this is like I say, you know, for me, I have to follow what Christ says. For those who aren't Christian, guess what? They don't have to follow what the Bible says, correct? OK. So I'm not sitting here and going to go off and you know, say, oh, you know you who don't profess to be Christian, you can't be in a marriage. 

I think that's a whole other conversation. I think mo most of what I'm talking about is confined to what I believe, which is Christ, the Bible, Christian and how all this relates to it we want to talk about as society relates to it as a whole outside of these other things, right? Pedophiles in that, you know, it, it, it, it, it amazes me when looking on youtube and all that people won't even see, say the P word porn. They'll say corn because they're afraid of being blocked by youtube. Oh, I never knew that Oh, yeah, it's, it's a big thing. So, I'm like, you know, what? Screw it. I don't care. We get locked. We're not monetized anyways right now. Who cares? Were available and rumble too. Things you do. Uh, but so, so my conversation in my answers, you know, on this, outside of those illegal things, which to be honest, guess what? 

There's a lot of guys who identify as gay who are gonna be against that sort of crap too. That's, that's why there's, there's that Twitter account. I don't know if you've seen it. Uh gays against groomers. Yeah. So it's a bunch of gay people, non-christian mostly who are against like the pedophiles, the drag queens in the schools and that they're against all that and they get a lot of hate and blowback because they're not following the narrative. So I, I want, I wanted to say that that all these answers that I'm giving for you are in that realm of a Christian in the church, not a non-christian in society because I think those are two different conversations that need to have for the most part on how a lot of these things relate because some of these things, you know, the non-christian go well, I don't believe in Christ. 

I don't believe in the Bible. You know what uh they're not gonna be under those same rules, those same, this is editor Paul in the future after hearing myself and how I just kind of word salad of that. And I didn't like how I said that in the video. So I decided to insert this little, uh, little addendum clip here. So what I said in that clip was that, you know, non-christian are not under the, the law that, and while that is technically true in the end, and I want to, this is what I want to add in here in the end. 

We're all, whether we believe in God or not, we all will bow and bend the need to God to Jesus in the end. And where we, we can't say, oh, I, we, I didn't know about this law. I didn't know about that. 

We'll all be judged in the same. We'll all be judged under the law. We'll all be judged by God for our sins that we commit. And the difference is that if you're a believer, your name is written in the Book of Life and it's a different judgment than if your name is not in the book of Life. So when I say we're not, um that the nonbelievers are not under the law in that regard. Yes. But I want to add that little distinction in there because as Christians, we are called to follow and live, what is in the Bible, we are called to continue to live our faith at all times, to do these things. And I wasn't as clear as I wanted to be in during the recording and I felt it important enough for editor Paul to come in, jump in and add this clip in. 

All right, let's get back things. Now, there are some things that we go. Well, these are natural things. These are things. Yes, I get it 100% agree. But guess what, the person who isn't a Christian isn't gonna understand that at first. And they're not gonna be like, well, these natural laws that you speak of, we need to follow. 

They're gonna be like this is what I, I want and, and, and that's why there has to be conversations. I think multiple conversations at multiple steps at multiple levels. There are some things that are universal and some things are true for someone who's trying to follow God properly. I think that, that that's how I look at it. So I, I just, I just wanna make that clear because, and I say that hi Vlad. 

Um, he's a guy from work who listens, yeah, he has a husband. Yeah, I, I, and I want you to understand that I don't think any different of you and if you want to have a conversation about this man, let, let, let's have, let's have that. Um, we can go for drinks after work or um, take an afternoon off at work and just go do something and, and go down to the coffee shop or something like that. Look, man, I want you to understand no bad feelings. Toward you at all ever. And I, I that a lot of this one I'm talking about is for the Christian inside the Christian context that wants to follow the Bible. So I, I just want to make that part. 

Yeah, it's a special shout out how lucky. Um Man. Yeah, that's where I was gonna. Also, I did, I obviously had questions on like regarding the church and whatnot. OK. Let, let's hear but just, oh, you did? I did I jump start another question in your head there? 

Of course you did. Uh So and so for you because you, you, you brought up kind of like where it all kind of started. Well, like, yeah, where it all started sort of thing. Um I guess, yeah, that, that does kind of bring up a couple of questions or as far as like, so for you go for it just because you will, you just have to remind me because I'm sure I've asked this before and my brain is great at remembering things that also wasn't recorded. So, um for you, what, when did, when did you, I guess make that, I guess change as far as like being, being a Christian for you when, when in the, in your life did that happen? I guess. But even so and this is where I'm kind of going like, so even before, so was that after sixth grade? Yes. Ok. That's what I thought. And then so from that time beforehand, I guess I did. Did you? Hm. Trying to think. Ok. So let, let, I'll let you think here for a second. So. Ok. Ok. So when I became a Christian, that would have been, I would have been 14 at the time. 

That would have been, I believe around my eighth or ninth grade year. Yeah, shortly. It would have been, it would have been like eighth grade year. That time frame it would have been, it was June. So it was between school years, my dad had the previous winter undergone brain surgery um for cancer, brain cancer to remove a tumor. He after the brain surgery underwent radiation and chemotherapy as well. And for a while, like in May time frame, things look good. 

They, they're like, oh, he's clear. Great. Awesome. June comes around one month later, remember I'm 14 and he gets the, it's back message and the one thing that he did say was that he would not do chemo or radiation again because he was, it made him feel horrible, made him feel sick. Oh, and so that was pretty much the the death knell. 

We knew what was coming. We didn't know how fast we knew it was coming. And I started asking what, what happens after death. Hm hm. Ok, because here I am 14 being faced with the death of my dad in front of me. What happens to him when he dies? What's next? It can't be just this blank, eternal faceless void of nothingness. Ken. It because if so that's pointless. It's hopeless. Mhm. Else. And I think I've told you this, my dad was not. How do I put this? 

He wasn't a Christian per se. He was very religious. Um, I remember from day one that I can remember, it was a Sunday tradition. You wake up, he made us pancakes. We went to church when we were down in North Carolina. 

The church we went to all I remember is those big white building. But we always sat like in this back room far away from the congregation. Didn't really interact with, anyone, didn't do anything, didn't do like kids church, Sunday school, nothing like that. We just walked in, went to there, listened, went home. That's how it was when we moved in to Wisconsin as well. We went to fellowship all that time and we would sit in the back leave. No youth group. No Sunday school. Nothing. There was a little bit of time when he was sick that he tried taking us to Sunday school. But that didn't last long men. 

Obviously, he passed away. So again, church had been a big part of my life. We were there every Sunday. It was something we always did. It was a routine. It wasn't, it didn't mean anything. 

Yeah, it was just a motion to go through a very Yeah, it was a motion to go to where we got pancakes before we went every Sunday. It wasn't, it was a part of the trip during the day. It wasn't a destination to go to and learn or do anything. And I remember Pastor Dave was doing actually a sermon on what happens after you die. It was June of that year, 1997 which date in June specifically, I can't tell you. 

I just know it was June on a Sunday in 1997. How do I know it was in 1997? Because I was 14 and my dad would pass away that December. It's kind of burned into my head. Ok. But he had that conversation that he had that sermon on what happens when you die. And that's when I, I guess you could say I decided I want to be saved. 

Um, but I didn't really start following properly. Then it still took me a few years to learn how to follow properly and dealing with all this junk that was building inside of me. I mean, during, but in the, in the, in the following years, I mean, depression, suicidal ideation. This thing s s a same sex traction stuff. All that fighting in me at the same time trying to build. 

I mean, and I didn't, the first time I stepped foot in youth group was after my dad died. Oh, I had never been to youth group before, so I didn't know what was going on. I didn't have connection with so many of these people. I remember at my dad's funeral and I think I, I, I don't have confirmation but I think I know what happened. Pastor, I think pastor David Reed in this one. These guys I had no relationship with from youth group. 

They appeared at my dad's funeral. They're around my age. Mhm. And they came up and talked to me. Hm. Never talked to them before. 

One of those guys, Nathaniel brash became one of my best friend, my best friends until he passed away. Like I said, you remind me a lot of them. You really do. Just don't have the glorious beard you had. Yeah. But you also have hair on your head. Yes. Exactly. Um, so, yeah, I never step foot in youth group until after that. And then, you know, here I come in as an outsider and, you know, Nathaniel, he, he helped a lot because he tried to include me in things. But me and him weren't really the closest and it took a while for that to happen. But eventually it did. Yeah. But yeah, you asked when and that's a long answer. 

Um, I really didn't, I'll be honest. I really didn't get serious about my faith in that until I was probably like 21 22 around that age. I was in college and that already. So it, it took me a while before I got serious. I played on the edges I, I faked, I played on the team. I wasn't as serious as I should have been. And a lot of that was me, I guess, trying to be self reliant to the fact that I wasn't open to any of those people about anything going on. Well, no one. Right. Not even this, not even Nathaniel never knew about my S S A. He knew about my, about my depression and that he came to find out about that later in life, but he didn't know about that part. 

That part took me a lot longer to start opening up to people about, oh, there's always such a, I mean, there has obviously been such a, I guess you always see bad reactions happening, like with it when anyone in the church would, I mean, talk about that. It's like you'd always get such a nasty backlash on the whole topic thing where it's like, I mean, yeah, you just, as soon as you were probably mention it, I mean, it's, I guess it's that unknown of who is gonna freak out and just go off on this. And I guess, I guess in my eyes also just wrongfully, I guess, well, I guess go off on somebody. Yeah. There, there's a big stigma against a lot of things in the church. Ok. Um, let's be honest. 

Uh, but there's also a big stigma against people who have, who deal with this on a normal basis. Um I'll be honest the first time, talk with you or Andy, I wasn't sure how either of you would react. I, I, I, I, I, I wasn't, and, and that wasn't because I didn't trust you guys. The only reason I even brought it up was because I trusted you implicitly. There was no question of the trust, but still there's that part that goes, are they just gonna out of hand reject me? There's still that fear. 

Now I'm part of an online group. Um It's an accountability group of other guys in my situation. It is heartbreaking to read the number of guys who talked about this or brought this forward to maybe their church leaders and were immediately dismissed or immediately asked to leave or immediately removed from any positions in which they were serving. Then we'll make this all part crystal clear for anyone who knows me. I didn't leave my previous church because of an issue with that. Um ok. Um I, I, I did talk to Pastor Dave pretty late in the, in the cycle of things. 

Yeah, but there was no like get out of here. There was no like you can't serve anymore. It was all right. How can we help you? Yeah. How can we keep you going? 

There wasn't any condemnation, there wasn't any you can't serve anymore. So I, I think I told you that uh OK, but I just want to make clear for anyone who knows me as well. And goes, wait, you just changed churches recently. Was this part of the, no, this wasn't, this wasn't part of the deal at all. There, there's no hostility there from any of that. It's all good where that, that wasn't, that wasn't factored into the whole situation at all. Yeah. It's funny because, um, so as you bring that up, it brings me to a question that I have towards the bottom here. But it was, that was one thing, like when we had, had that conversation. Mhm. I can't remember how, how, how, well, how you set up or how you brought it up or whatnot. But it was like the whole thing. I was like, how do you identify sort of then? 

Like, I, I, and I, I think I'm pretty sure I said it but I was like, because you kind of surprised me, you took me off guard on what, how you responded to. That was the whole thing is I'm a Christian that has, you know, just struggles with this sin and whatnot. So, so my exact phrasing was, I'm a Christian who struggles slightly different. Yes. Yes. And I love how it's, I mean, I, I, I loved that because it's like for those that just, I mean, think that some, well, I mean, we treat it like a taboo kind of subject but it's like for those that are just like, how can that be sort of thing? 

It's, I mean, I guess you just look at sin is sin. Yes. But I also think it's also very distinctly different in, in this regard. Um OK, so remember what I said, I, I identify as a Christian who struggles slightly different. OK, I have a slightly different struggle, struggle than, you know, you do. 

I guess then the root of the root of it is still the same, you know, just OK instead of, you know, like you might have trouble like be like, oh, that woman is in a bikini. I might be like, oh man, that guy's in a Speedo OK, slightly different. But, but the root of it is the same, the root of it is still lust, right? OK. Whether it's directed at someone of the same gender or not, it's still lust. Correct. Now, obviously I have to go well, you know what? 

For me that's never going to be in the cards where I can be like, hey, you know what, let's get, let's get to know each other and get married. I know that's on the cards. OK? And it took me a long time to get fine with that. You know, I, I still struggle with that sometimes if I'm being honest, but I'm more so fine than I am a while ago. Like I, I've come to accept that. Yeah. But where I, I, and this is why I say that is important because here's the difference when I say I'm a Christian who struggles slightly different. 

Mhm I'm not putting my identity in who I'm attracted to. I'm not putting my identity in, you know, all this sort of thing. I'm putting my identity in Christ, same as you should be doing, same as anyone else should be doing. That says that they are a Christian. When you have someone in the LGBT community, they put their identity and who they're attracted to for the most part, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say for the most part, I'm generalizing some, OK? 

There are some people who are gonna be like, no, I don't blah, blah, blah, let's have that conversation out outside, you know, later. But for the most part they go, I'm gay, I'm attracted men, attracted woman or whatever. Therefore, that is my identity. This and with that identity comes these things, you know, you're never gonna see me wearing a rainbow and, and marching on the price for a flag thing. No, you're never gonna, you're never gonna see me doing that. OK? Because I hold too much to the biblical values and that actually, and outside of that group that I'm part of online, outside of, you know, the people that know me personally, you know, like if you were to be like, oh look, there's a person over here who is attracting a man, you should go over here and join the gay community and do this and that I would be at the pariah because I'd be like, no, I can't like, why not? Because I'm not gay. And they go, well, you're attracting men. Yeah. You're putting my identity here when it's not. I'm a Christian. I just am tempted. Different. Mhm. That's the difference. Yeah. And thankfully Christians, other guys have been very, like, ok, I get it. 

I understand what's going on. You, Josh Andy. Uh, both Andy. Yeah. You know, get it, you know, and that's a thing, you know, but there are people who are outside the church who might not get that and, and, and that's just this weird concept to them that they'll be like, I, I don't understand why, how, how, how can you do that? How could you deny? And this is an argument, like, if you read anything from Matthew Vine or anything like that, do you know who Matthew Vitton is? 

No, not off the top. Ok. I, I, I figured you probably wouldn't. Uh, so Matthew Vine is this guy he went to, I believe it was Harvard. He decided to take a couple of years off and he came back and he's like, and during that couple of years he's like, I'm going to study, um, what the Bible says about homosexuality and he came back a couple of years after, you know, he took the time off and started lecturing and all that stuff and he goes, well, the Bible is fully accepting of gay people and fully accepting of same sex unions and all this stuff and, but there's a lot of things in there that just don't make sense that he says we don't, we can get into that some of that stuff in there if we want to and that. But ultimately, it comes down to him that it's also identity issue. 

It's not your identity in Christ, it's your identity and who you are attracted to. And I'm like, no, we're, you're moving down the wrong path here, buddy. If, if your identity isn't in Christ first, then we have a lot more to discuss, especially if you come under the banner of a Christian, right? You know, because he's going around saying you can be gay and a Christian and in a same sex relationship, you know, how much I would have loved for that to be true, right? So much. But I have to come out, I have to say no based on how I read the scripture and yes, based on how we go back and look at some of the old words. 

When I say the old words, I'm talking the original Hebrew, the original Greek. How it does not affirm that. Hm. And that's what, and I know we had talked about either well before at some point, whereas, and one of my questions was like, yeah, how do you address those folks uh that are in the church that are affirming of same sex, marriage relationships, whatever. Because like, I mean, as I was reading through some, I mean, it was, I don't know, not a good example. OK. I mean, because there, there were several, uh, like, there was, there was, um, they had several examples of like, like prescription stuff where it talks about, I don't know, some sort of this stuff. But one and one of the examples, let me see if I can pull it up quick. 

It's why, I don't know why it's going so slow right now. Um But it was talking about how marriage is like where it talks about the marriage between Christ and the body being is genderless. So gender shouldn't matter for us as humans for marriage sort of thing. And uh so I was just looking at some of their like different examples as to like how they justify it. And with that being one of the one of the justifications of like no, see, OK, so that justification there, that, that, that one they're really pulling and stretching. OK? You know that those are the same people that, that say that Christ was transgendered because God doesn't have a gender. 

Therefore, Christ doesn't have a gender and he became aware of his gender at 30 something. This is what they say it. It's, it's a mess of a theological take, a take from their side in all honesty. There is no, there's no good scriptural support for it, you know, so we have Jesus in the New Testament reaffirming what the idea of marriage is marriage is between a man and a woman. He says, as God created them in the garden, man and woman. So a man will leave his family to join with his wife. OK? You have that and the people go, oh no, no, but you're misinterpreting things. 

You're and so they, they keep coming back. So to the what are titled, the six clobber passages, if you're familiar with those at all, these are the really the only six verses that directly reference homosexuality in the Bible. OK. Now I say directly as in the words around them are in there, there are other passages which reference concepts around this. But they, they come back to these six because they go, well, if we can defeat these six verses, that means we're in the clear on things. OK? You know, so the first one they come back to is Sodom and Gomorrah, you know, in Genesis, all right. And they go, well, no, it wasn't about homosexuality, it wasn't about anything. 

It, it was about them not showing hospitality and kindness to strangers. That's where they go, right? And, and that's what, and that's what they do it to be fair, to be fair. There are other points in the Old Testament which talk about Sodom and Gomorrah, not being hospitable. OK? But they roughly forget is that Jude seven then comes back and references Jude part of the New Testament comes back and references Sodom and Gomorrah and says just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. OK? So if you wanna stick to just old Testament stuff, then maybe you can get away with some of that. But then when Jude comes back and brings us and references us, we got an issue because you can't have it both ways and then people go. But Jewish scholars said Sodom and Gomorrah, they're just wicked cities to begin with. 

Yes, they were wicked cities. This was part of their wickedness. OK? And then they'll go well, OK. But the Jews Jewish culture, you know, and this then starts referencing like stuff in Leviticus about uh because you know, in Leviticus, you have all the laws Leviticus 18 22 do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman that is detestable. Interesting. So detestable is an interesting word there. And I think um me and you talked about this even before uh today's session. Um where essentially that's a word in English or it's also abomination translating in English. OK. Right. The word for abomination occurs in Leviticus six times. 

All of them deal with Leviticus. 18, dealing with incest, child sacrifice, sexual sins when it says stuff like eating pork is an abomination. It's using a different Hebrew word. Hm. So, you know, in English we're reading it as, this is an abomination, this is abomination, this is an abomination. And we're like, these are on the same level, but the Hebrew words are actually different levels. They're different words. We just translate them horribly into English as abomination. And so therefore, everything seems to be the same when the Hebrews understand there's a difference and then you go well, OK, but all the law was, you know, no longer applied because we're a New Testament under Jesus. 

Jesus said he came to complete the law. First off, second off, there's things in there, uh, a, you know, afterwards where, and then we, I think we even, we've read about this in acts where all of a sudden we, you know, Peter goes, has a vision of the, the food that was unclean and God says I didn't make unclean food. Guess what? That repeals all those like cleanliness, food things also, same stuff about like mixed fabrics, same sort of deal. Guess what was never repealed by Jesus? Ever in the New Testament? Anything regarding the Holiness code? 

Stuff like marriage, stuff like homosexuality, stuff like child sacrifice, that sort of stuff. And people go, oh, you're just, yeah, you just want to what you want, dude. I would love that if biblically that was allowed, right? Ok. Let's just be honest. Um, like I said, it's taken me a long time to understand. 

I'm not gonna have a traditional style family, you know, I'm not gonna have a spouse and I'm not gonna have kids with said spouse. Ok, I have a different type of family. My family isn't gonna be the spouse that, you know, whatever it's gonna be brothers that I'm close to and around that hold me accountable and I hold them accountable to on different things because we struggle with different things. You Andy Josh, you guys are my family. The church that I go to is part of my family. Mhm. I have a different family structure. Would I love for it to be at that traditional famous? 

Yes, that's on the cards for me. And that's taken a while to understand and to accept and some people go, well, you're asking that person to be lonely, then you're asking them to be without, there is a difference between being lonely, being single. I can be single and not lonely. I could be married when lonely with, you know, 20 kids and lonely. Yeah, I'm not lonely. I, I have been at points obviously the depression and that didn't help but I'm not now and I'm single and that, that's where it is, you know, and I got asked this question by um the new pastor Andy at the new church I go to because I, I talked to him before I signed up with eighteens because I said, look here, here's where I am. Here's what life. I don't affirm in what I affirm like. 

Is it cool if I serve here, he's like, yeah, that's fine. He goes. But if you ever get, like, a partner changes things, you know, the, the same gender, he's like, then we're gonna have a conversation and you're gonna be out and I'm like, that's, that's cool. I get it. Mhm. And he asked me a question. 

I found very interesting. He was like, if God ever changed your desires though. Um, yeah. Found a woman. Would you marry her? 

I'm like, in a heartbeat. I forget. That's right. You didn't have that, you know. And that's what I said. I was trying to say earlier. 

I was like, there's probably some, there's some girls, ladies, I should probably give an apology to mean that I, I, I was gonna ask, it was a part of like way back in my first question was, um, so like obviously having that mindset. Um So did you, I was gonna ask like, yeah, did you ever try and like, force yourself to change that mindset sort of thing? And like, as in, like I had in here, it's like, so, all right. So did you have, or did you try to change it by looking for a relationship with a good old gal? 

That's the same way to put it. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I did and to be honest, that wasn't fair to them. 

They never knew that was a follow up and up until now. They don't know. Yeah. Um, that's why I said I probably owe them some apologies. And that's, I, I never really, yeah, I never put, wait, look, was lacrosse after that. Like, any relationship? No, no, lacrosse is literally during. Right. Well, no, lacrosse. It was before. Well, yeah, it was before but it was like, it was during kind of like the whole, like, I guess, still looking for a relationship kind of thing and I guess, yeah, I never, I never even thought about that. Yeah. So, and that's why I said, I pray all the apologies and I, I definitely dated women to try to force that perspective change. 

I guess you could say force that attraction change and just, it didn't work. And that being said, I, I've read stories where that has worked for some people. There are actually stories out there. If you look, there are guys and I, I, I don't agree. You should force it. 

There's some people who believe that if you're same sex attracted, you should be forced to marry a woman and just go through with it and everything and have Children and everything will be all right. That might work for some people and they might be happy. Some are very unhappy and they'd end up getting divorced because obviously that's not what they want. And so I'm like, I, I, I don't want to force that and I don't want to force another person into that, especially if they don't know now, if they, if they know and they're like, oh, yeah, cool. I'm, I'm fine with that then, hey, whatever. Let's, let's talk. But, mhm. In all honesty, that's probably not fair to them because be like, hey, look, we're gonna get married. 

Um, yeah, I'm not attracted to you. Uh, I'd rather look at the guys on the beach. What wife would love that? It's kind of, hey, honey, I don't have eyes for you. I have eyes for the groomsmen. Ok. That doesn't work. Ok. I can see how that kind of makes things a little complicated. Yeah. Now there are guys who have done that and obviously they, they say they're being successful with it and great. 

I'm glad for them. Um, if that helps out with that, I, at where I'm at, I just don't think that's the case for me. Were that to ever change though? Yeah. Yes. Yes. Ok. So then that, that, yeah, that already answered another one. It was like, so I was like, do you personally hope that someday you could have a change in mind from, dude? 

I have been, yeah, I have been asking that from God. Yeah, since I was a teenager. Yeah. Hm. You know, people always, always go well, you just have to have to have enough faith to ask, you know, this. Ok. Fine. But if that's what you think, cool, I've asked for many years and you know, they always go. 

God will always answer the prayer sometimes it's no. And you know what? Right now the answer is no. I look to things like in, in a weird way. My namesake, in, in some regard, um Paul from the Bible, we don't know what the thorn in his flesh was. 

It's never some people speculate that, you know, a myriad of things and you can speculate things all you want, that's fine until we know it. We, we don't know. And you know, he always says, you know, I, I have that, you know, he goes, I asked for this thorn to be removed, you know, multiple times essentially and never has, but it's gonna stay here now for the glory for God to be glorified essentially through this. And that's kind of where I've landed at is I'm not, I would love for this to be just purged out on, will it happen? I would love it to. But realistically, I'm turning 40 at the end of this month, it's already, it's already, it's 20 plus years of this. I don't see that happening, right? But if it happened, yeah, I'm jumping at the opportunity and I guess, yeah, to follow up with it was because yeah, like, is there anything? 

Yeah, I guess obviously besides like praying and so I guess, I don't know, was there anything that you ever like looked into as far as like having some sort of, I guess in a sense you could say help with it and then obviously, like, as, like, trying to be in a relationship with a woman and stuff like that. Yeah, I see how that's like, trying to be like, hey, like that, but it's just not happening. Um, I guess, yeah, I wasn't sure if there's any other, like, sort of, I mean, there's things to do or there used to be a lot in this space of, um, what they call, like, conversion therapy sort of thing is what they call it. Um There was, there's some, there's a lot of issues with some of that. I said some, not all of it. Um some of them how they ran them just horrible. 

Honestly, it was like electroshock therapy combined with like straight porn. So, and then like, if you ever saw gay porn, they would, you know, they would then shock you. So it kind of gets you trying to burn that. They imagine your brain in bad this good. Yeah. But they would actually use straight porn as part of it. That, that's not always a good thing, right? 

There was also a lot of people who, and a lot of these, you know, conversion therapies, whatever would be told that because they were attracted to someone of the same sex or same gender that they were, you know, basically trash and they ended up hating themselves, causing depression and them causing suicide. So how that works wasn't always the best. Ok. That's, that's why it's being outlawed. Well, there's multiple reasons why it's being outlawed in many states. Um Beyond that. Plus, it also goes against the narrative currently of, you know, of, yeah, of June essentially, let's say right. Yeah. Yeah. So have I looked at it? 

Yeah, but at the same time, I also understand the potential downfalls of it, you know, and I also go now there are people go, yeah, you just pray it away, just pray away, just do this, do this. And oh man, those people, I, I want to strangle you with love. If I could just pray this away, man, it would have been gone in my early thirties, right? Oh man. And the amount of time like I would just tide it from people just like it took me forever to tell you and, and Andy and Josh and that um I recently told our former youth pastor or your former former youth pastor um because he wasn't, he was never a youth pastor when I was in youth group. Uh but I worked with him as a youth leader uh Toby and I talked with him about it. And yeah, that was a very interesting conversation. 

Yeah, but you know, ultimately in the end he goes, he, he goes, man, I first off, he was like, thank you for telling me. And then he's like, it's like I, because I can't even understand how this would be, you know, not as like how this happened but, like, you know, like how difficult that could be to deal with the process. Yeah. And don't get me wrong. There are times, like, especially late twenties or thirties. 

I'm seeing all these people. I know all of a sudden and coupling up and getting married and that, and I'm like, this would, this would, this would be great. Yep. Yeah. It's, yeah, it's, it's interesting, like being in that wedding and baby season for. Yeah, I, I guess in my life with all my friends left, well, not, I shouldn't say all my friends but like several friends. 

It's like, oh, get married. Oh, you're expecting already? Oh, ok. Here you just hitched up. Oh, ok. Yeah. Here. Yeah, it's all right. 

It's all right though. I don't mind it. Look, man, you know, where are you, where you eventually get married or you stay single for whatever reason, which is your own reason to be single or get married. The, the, the fundamental thing is not to put your identity in if you have a relationship or not with another person to put your relationship in Christ. These are, well, yeah, he should be our, our, our, our identity. Wow. I couldn't get that word out. And Paul does say in the scriptures that those who are single don't have to worry about a lot of things. 

They can spend more time serving the church. And I, precisely, I try to take advantage of that as well. You know, I'm involved in the soundboard team. Now we'll be involved in the live streaming once we get that all kind of figured out involved with the youth group, you know, and all this stuff, I've already had one kid be like, oh gosh, he's like, you know, because I'm newer. So he's just, he's still asking me questions. 

No, he's not being Dirk. He's trying to get to know me. He's like, he's like you married? No, you have kids. No, why not? You're old. And I just sat there and I was like, dude, if you only knew and he asked this like they, they have this thing in the youth group called family time. So it's like a couple minutes. 

I was like, dude, there is not enough time right now to explain everything. I was like, this would be a long conversation and I, I was like, I'm still new to this youth group. So um yeah, I, I didn't say the, the, what I really wanted to say was I don't feel comfortable having this conversation with you yet because there's, it's still like you said, it's still that stigma out there. It's still that thing. Like I said, I know a bunch of guys who got removed from positions or asked to leave their churches and all that just because they finally admitted to someone that they were struggling with this issue, they felt devastated afterwards and I don't blame them. No. And they, and they felt torn up. 

They didn't know what to do. They already felt less than, and then they're being asked to step down and leave and it, it's hurtful and the church is, I don't know if the church is handling it properly yet. Thankfully, the two I've been involved with, with this is handling it at, at a decent pace. They're handling it properly. They're dressing it properly. But the church as a whole seems to be struggling. 

Part of that is, there's a lot of churches right now that are very gay, affirming, gay marriage affirming in that there was a guy, I went to college with his wife, him and his wife separated. Ok. Uh, she is now a pastor at a church in Pennsylvania with her wife, you know, very, you know, and they went to cornerstone with me at the same time. There's a bunch of guys that I, I shouldn't say a bunch. There's a couple of guys, I know that cornerstone at the same time. 

I, you know, there's that kind of old joke, the gator sort of deal. Ok. I kind of picked them. I know. I kind of picked up the two of them right away. Like I was like, yeah. 

Yeah, my suspicions turned out. Right. Yep. Nice. I should ask him if I ever tripped up there. There. You guys caught my radar. But, yeah. Yeah. And so it's definitely one of those interesting things to see. 

Over time and those who I went to school with and that, and then they're now very pro LGBT. They're very pro gay. They're very pro all this. And I'm sitting over in the corner going, I, I can't be, I read the scriptures and the scriptures do not tell me that this is ok. And they go, oh, you're misreading. 

Tell me where, because I'd like to, I'd like to tell me I would like to learn. Oh, yeah. First Corinthians. No, I'm sorry, Paul was pretty clear. 

Well, that's because we don't know how it's translated. Yeah, we do know how these words are translated. Sorry, just, we would like them to be translated a different way or try to add a little more cultural context to make it acceptable to do what we want to do. Trust me. That would be so easy to do. Right. Um Again, Christopher Yuan, if you haven't listened to a lot of his stuff, uh, he talks about, it's kind of the same thing. 

Um, in his book Out of Our Country, it's a book co-written between him and his mom. Like they trade off chapters, one writes one chapter, one writes the other chapter each from their perspective. And uh he talks about his time in jail but he just came to Christ, gay guy living, I think, I think by that point he had been diagnosed with AIDS. 

Um, he had been arrested for drug charges. He was selling drugs. It's, it's a good story. Go read it. Um, but eventually in jail he found Christ and he went to the chaplain there and he's like, look, he's like, I'm, I'm gay, I'm a Christian, da da da. And the chaplain gave a book and said, see, you can be gay and a Christian and have like a same sex partner. Oh, yeah. And you, he, you know, he's like, you know, he says in his book, I'm paraphrasing. But basically he read through that book that he was given and he goes, no, they're mutating scripture gave it back to Chaplin said no and, and said, I'm gonna go by what the Bible says. 

Oh yeah, he didn't like that, you know, and after he got out of jail, you know, with the help of his parents and that um he actually went to moody, became a student and then taught for a while. And now he goes around talking about Christians, same sex attraction, gay community and all that. He has a lot of interviews out there. So Christopher good guy definitely recommend checking him out. He has a lot of good stuff to say. And you know, he's walked through a lot of this, you know, further than I have, you know, he actually has had multiple boyfriends and, and sex partners and that, and so he, he came out of not trying to compare or anything here. Um But, you know, he came out of a, a bigger pit, so to speak. 

You know, he came from a deeper depths of despair to where he is now and can talk about this and says this. Um just like they say, I don't, I don't know if you've ever, I know, I know you've know this because we've talked about this. There's a side A B X and Y Christianity. Yes. You asked me, which was like just from reading it. Which one do you think I am? Uh I don't remember which one that was, but I remember guessing the right one. OK. You don't remember which one, huh?