A Personal Conversation: Pt 2

 There's a side A B X and Y Christianity. Yes. You asked me, which was like just from reading it. Which one do you think I am? Uh I don't remember which one that was, but I remember guessing the right one. OK. You don't remember which one, huh? 

I don't, I, I don't like, remember what letter which OK. So side A B X and Y, it's A and B are the more popular ones that you'll hear out there. OK. So a means that they believe that God intentionally created queer people with same sex attractions. Therefore, same sex relations are blessed by God. A is the typically what you call the affirming view. OK. Side B is that, is believers that hold that homosexual orientation is not a sin, but acting on homosexual inclinations is side B takes a position that sexual relations between people of the same sex are morally wrong, but romantic relationships are different. So celibate, same sex partners are not necessarily wrong. Hm. OK. Side Y oh, I have to read X in order before you get why, um X believes that homosexual attraction itself is a sin those with same sex inclinations must repent. Uh God can and does change his sinful attractions and homosexuals can be cured. OK. Side Y basically falls in between side B and X agreeing with both sides at same sex, sexual relationships are wrong side. 

Y stance is that we find our identity in Christ and therefore we shouldn't identify ourselves by sexual orientation. We have all been called to holiness. Hm. Side Y focuses on identity as a Christian rather than sexual identity. Much like Paul removes identification labels in Galatians 3 28 because you are all one in Christ Jesus. So unlike side B, side Y does not see, maintain a queer identity as God honoring and unlike Side X side Y does not strive to make all Christians heterosexual, the ultimate goal according to decide why is become more like Christ in the individual way God has for each person. So which you fell under the Y. Yeah, exactly. Because I was at first like when I first read X, I was like, oh I was getting there but then it was the whole like, I mean, it canon does change the uh the attraction which I mean not saying that's not possible but it but forcing or like trying like be so that makes sure that does happen or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. It's the whole identity in Christ and whatnot is the important part for why, where it makes it different. Yeah. Inside X Y is more that's like, come about in the last, like, year and a half, two years. 

It's relatively new than the concept. The concept of A and B was kind of out there for a long time. Um, side B was real predominant out there. But then they started going well, no, you can't still be in a same sex relationship. And that's when people start making the X and the Y and da, da da and just how things go all the time it seems like. 

Yeah, until X Y become A and B and then now I need more letters for the, I don't know. No, man. Yeah. As far as like, yeah. Yeah. I, this is probably a really easy one to answer and it's kind of already, I mean, it's basically don't do what the people that have like. 

Well, yeah, for, for in the church, I'm sorry, uh, for like in the church and whatnot for. It's just how do you, who was home and just read your freaking thing, man. Um, for someone say, who, who, like, may not know how to act towards someone with, like, with, with uh same sex attraction, what would you like? What kind of, I guess advice would you have for someone that's like, I don't know that it's like, what would you, how would you help someone that doesn't know how to, I guess, react to hearing that sort of news or it's new to them, sort of thing. Um, because like in my mind and now granted, yeah. And in my mind I was saying in, personally it's like, well, I mean, you still just love the person, like, how hard is that sort of thing. But I guess, I don't know, I can imagine some people just all of a sudden like being awkward with, um, with being awkward with whoever it may be that has just come out to you and said, hey, yeah, I struggle with this. Um because like the first time someone ever had told me that they were, that they were gay, it was kind of funny and how they, how they said it because if they just said it like, super quick, like it was just like trying to like, kind of like, do it like really quickly. So it's like either one that kind of catches you off guard and you just don't even think twice about it, sort of thing, whatever. But it's like, thankful and I guess this is what I'm thankful for. 

At least for me for the case was, I don't really think anything of it. It was just one of those things where it's like, oh, ok. Well, so this is just where they happen to struggle with their sexuality sort of thing. It's just, I mean, again, yeah, it's the whole thing where I have my own sexual like, struggles with whatever. I mean, born whatever else. It's like I can still have sin. It's just different. So, it's like I never thought that person or I, I guess my relationship with that person never got weird because of it, sort of thing. 

Um, I don't know. I guess it's just, I've from some people, like I've, hm. Yeah, you heard, and there's nobody that, you know, um, but it's like they just get weird about it as soon as it's, like, been mentioned or whatever. It's just like, oh, well, kind of like, so is this why they want to hang out or whatever, like, what are their actual motives then? For certain things? And they just get, like, all super weird about them, like, are freaking out that they're getting hit on sort of thing. It's just like, well, no, I guess coming from a, a, I guess if you're a Christian, uh, I guess, yeah, that, that was never a concern of mine but I guess if someone's not a Christian then I guess you can probably have that, that question or you'd have to ask that question, like, so what, what are your intentions of this friendship then if you're not a Christian one? But I guess, I don't know, I don't know. Like, how do you, I guess, is there any advice or, like, any way to, like, kind of, like, tell people something on how to, like, how do you react when you hear news, like, that sort of thing? Because it's, to me it's like, it shouldn't be some crazy wild like thing that some people make it out to be. I don't know. This is a really weird question. 

I don't know how to word it, but no, I, I think it's a good question though. Yeah. And here's why people, I'm speaking from personal experience and other guys I've talked to, ok, that, that deal, that deal with this, the deal with this, right? People who deal with this guys who deal with this, maybe girls are different. I don't know, I haven't, you know, got gotten into that room but I'm saying guys who deal with this, if they tell you this, if they tell you that this is a struggle that they have, that this is something they're dealing with. 

One of these following things is probably true. One, you're probably someone they trust greatly. Two, you price someone that has been there for them through a lot of things which might, which probably implies one, ok? Three, maybe you might be someone that they identify as someone who is a leader or can help, you know, or is spiritually mature, you know, and that might be tied to one and two might not be, might be independent of those, ok? But usually when those things, those three things is true in that regard. If one and two is probably in that, in that, you know, in the field of what's happening, that means that they have a lot of trust in your relationship with them and they're feeling vulnerable at that point when they tell you that's a hard thing to say. 

Think about, think about the, the worst thing that you've had to deal with that you're tempted with or that you were going through and how hard that was to say to someone, hey, I'm dealing with this or I did this and I need help or this happened. Ok. And how, maybe you were a little frightened, a little scared when that occurred. OK. Now you're dealing with someone who, when they're telling you this, this is what I'm dealing with. This is what I'm struggling with. 

This has probably been going on for years under the surface. This isn't a split decision that they made. This isn't, you know, for lack of better terminology, a drunken night out. This is something that has probably been bubbling and boiling under the surface. 5, 10, 15, 20 years depending on their age. This is something that probably at the start when you know, they're finally starting to talk about it, they probably think of it as their identity. 

They don't realize that your identity should be in Christ and not in this. So they're being very vulnerable. Mhm So a couple of things there that you can do one, especially if you know them and, and they're close to and don't make it a big deal. Don't, don't be like, don't be like jump back and surprised by, oh my goodness. I never would have guessed this. 

Oh, you're for real right now. You know, even as they're, uh, even if they're quote unquote passing, you know what that means. Fair enough. So, so if a person and, and this can mean a lot of things, uh, so whether they're, um, like me, I'm passing on multiple levels. Um, so, you know, I have Hispanic blood in me. Right. And I can pass for a white person, I can pass, you know, if they say they're struggling with this but you, that never would have come into your mind. 

Like, you know, they're, they're just a normal guy. They're not the stereotypical, you know, effeminate, high pitched voice or whatever, the whole fan thing. Yeah, exactly. You know, if they're not doing any of that where, like, if they wouldn't have said anything, you would have no clue. That's what I mean by passing. Right. Got you, you know, all this, you know, be like, so don't make the, the big like thing. But also, so a and after that be like, thank you for trusting me with this. Mhm. Because when someone's telling you that they want to know one of two things, whether you're in their corner or not. And hopefully as Christians, especially if we know this person, we're in their corner and you might go, well, I don't know anything about this issue. 

Oh, yeah, you do. Are you a guy that's tempted to look at women. Guess what? You know exactly what that guy's going through except guess what, just replace one with men. Yeah. It at the root cause it's the same thing how it, how it's express might look a little different but at the root cause it's the same thing. 

It's a lust tissue. Yeah. So don't make a big deal of it. Make, you know, don't make a big thing. Tell them. Thank you. And then, you know, if, especially if you're close with them. You like, is there anything I can do to help? Can I pray? Can I, you know, can we, you know, meet up for lunch every couple weeks or whatever? Just so they know they have someone in their corner that helps tremendously when you're going through stuff because then you're not wondering, am I alone? Am I doing this? Da da da. You're like, no, I know I have people in my corner that if this is getting a little more complex than I want it to be or a little more strenuous or whatever I can be like, hey Aaron, hey Josh. Hey Andy. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. And saying that's, it's as simple as that. 

It, it, it, it's as simple as being a, a normal human and I'm gonna turn this table on you here for a second here. I don't like that. I'm just saying, I mean, when, when I told you, right. Well, what through my head? Yeah. What, what what, what, what, what, what, what, what wouldn't through your head because I'm from my side if I'm being 100% honest here. Mhm. I told you you're like, ok, cool. 

We had some conversations since then on and off but it's never been a, like, I'm the one who is going to make him straight. Let me help a brother out real quick. Yeah. It's never been, like, I, I, I've never felt like I've been treated differently, which is a good thing, which is how it should be because ultimately we're all just people, we have, we have the same, I guess, like, end goal, you know, as far as well. Yeah. For you and me being, like, minded with the whole thing with, with Christ and, and whatnot. 

So, it's like we're both striving for the same thing. We're just in different areas. Exactly. So, for a slightly different path on how we get there in, in that regard. But, you know what, ultimately at the end the courses are pretty similar. 

Just, hey, I gotta be a little bit more careful, you know, and like, but I don't want to get away from the question. What, what went through, what went through your head when we talked about this the first time? No. Well, wait, what was the first time or any of the times? Like, what, what, like, what went through your head? Like, oh, my goodness. 

I can't believe he actually said that trying to think for, for back in, uh, well, being back in lacrosse, uh, what was it, it was that it was, I think it was out at one of the bars. I know you, you had mentioned something about, um, uh, she had mentioned something about the bar. Ok. But it doesn't matter where. But go on, I think it's like the, the, the, the comment, it sort of took me by surprise a little bit, but I didn't think much of it and I was just like, oh, interesting. I think that was like one of the first times where it seemed like that was something that you were, like, currently sort of like struggling with or going through. And I was just like, wait, at first I was like, wait, I was like, did I, did I hear that? Right. Did I not hear that? 

I was like, I definitely heard that right. I was like, hm, ok. And this, I will, I will also say though it's like, thankfully like, you know, I had that other guy that, uh, this is at some point some time be even before, you know, you had ever mentioned anything like that. Um, who had already opened up to me about him. And I was just like, oh, ok. And it, and it's one of those things where it's because like, I can understand how it's like you don't wanna, well, yeah, you don't wanna have that like, shocker moment. 

Like, oh my, because it's like, I can imagine for me telling somebody something that's very personal with me that I'm like, oh, I'm scared to say this. It's like if you say that and then you have some big old, like, reactions to go shoot. No. Right. You just, all your mind is flooded with all the thoughts, like, oh, what if they think this or, you know, how is this gonna happen, sort of thing? Um, so, I don't know, I guess, yeah, I didn't really think too much. 

Um, I guess for, for me it was just, I didn't want, I guess going forward and this is after like the most recent time when, when you, you talked to me about it was, I actually did start to kind of think about being, I was like, man, maybe I should be a little bit more mindful of like, potentially like, of like either like comments or like certain actions or whatever that I do because it's like I don't want to and because I don't want will one do something that either might trip you up, set you up or whatever or just like, oh, obviously I get you frustrated. It's like we don't wanna, we don't wanna, you know, make one another stumble or, you know, have any sort of falls in any way, um, or wives who don't want to hurt one another either. Uh So that was the only thing I was like, shoot as far as like, oh comments. What is OK, what's not ok or like certain actions or whatever. So I was just like, oh and it's mainly how to throw Josh and I under the bus. Uh So like, obviously like when we get like weird with each other, like, jokingly, I was like, I thought I was like, I was like, oh, shoot, I was like, I hope that doesn't like, man, I was like, have we, have we been like, secretly making Paul mad and doing this or just, you know, or getting any sort of reaction out of Paul? 

That's probably not good when we get weird with each other like that just randomly. That, that, that phrasing there, sir. Phrasing. So horrible. Amy, you did marry both of us? Technically. That's weird. Um So like that was like one thought I had had in my mind. 

I was like, I was like, dude, I was like, well, obviously at this point he's still your friend. So it's like, I guess I there's, there's no, unless, unless it was like, unless he's like brought something up or whatever, which I guess it shouldn't have been, it wouldn't have been a bad idea to ever bring it up and ask, but it's like he hasn't brought it up yet. He hasn't said that's an issue. I was like, things are still as they were now, you just know more info. So, so two things on that, I'll say this. OK. And this is good for anyone else out there. 

You know that maybe he's like, man, I have a friend like this. I don't know what to do but, but, but how do I, how do I interact like this? Two things? OK. One, it's not the worst idea to bring it. It would be like if you have that idea like, oh would this cause an issue? Would this cause a stumble or would this cause him to be mad or frustrated? 

It's not a bad idea to bring it up. Ok. You know it and do it in a nice, gentle way. You don't have to do it like in a very public way or anything. Like would this bother you if I did this or showed you this? Yeah. You don't have to do that in front of everyone. Yeah, but you could have that conversation, right? Um Especially if you feel comfortable and they're a good friend of yours. Ok? But I'll say this. Yeah. No, that's OK. It's all good because, because if it would have been an issue, I would have brought it up. And I thought knowing you, hm Paul has an issue with something. 

I don't wanna say you something. I, I, I'm more than I'm more than fine with, with that because I understand it. You two just, you're special, special kind of stupid. And I understand that and I, and I, I laugh at it so don't, don't work. Don't, don't, don't second guess any of that. But the second thing I want to say is that's also a good mindset to have is ok. 

Now I know this. Right. Just like I know if I'm around an alcoholic, I might not drink around them if that helps them not stumble. You know, and maybe, you know, you had that conversation of like, hey, is there anything that we do that da da da cause you to stumble? Cause you do this and if they trust you, hopefully they're honest with you and open and be like, yeah, could you not do this? That? And then you're the third thing is you're gonna screw up once in a while, unintentionally, you're just gonna do something and it's going to maybe cause them to get upset or especially if you talked about it and they're like, well they should know it's gonna happen. People get people, people piss each other off all the time, unintentionally too that they do something in the blink of a moment and then it's like, what, what, what? 

Oh yeah, so you're, you're good, don't worry about that. You're good. OK? But I just want to know if there's a Yeah, what, you know what was going through your mind when you heard that? Because I could imagine for some people that might be like, oh my goodness, what the heck is going on? What, what is happening? 

My uh my, my world view of this person all of a sudden is destroyed. Like I, what? Different. Yeah. No. You know, I was, yeah, I guess, man, that, I mean, that was mean, that was a good night for conversation though. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I guess, I don't know, it sounds weird. Or what, uh, what's the dude? 

We've had too many weird conversations. Well, no. Yeah. No, it, it's, I guess it's not weird but, like I'm trying to think of, I don't know, I don't know what, what I'm, what I'm trying to, what I'm trying to think of or whatever. Yeah. But it was, it was kind of like one of those, there was like one of those songs I was like, man, I was like, well, it's cool obviously that I'm one of those dudes that he trusts enough to just be like, boom, finally have that conversation. 

I know what I mean. It's, and I was gonna mean, even like, with this, especially doing it on podcasting now it's, that takes a lot to do and that is very, I would say admirable and that's awesome that you're willing to do that and, you know, have that conversation and just now it's, now it's not. Yeah. And the reason I, I was like, you know what, I think it's time to be more public about it. Um, it, it, it never was a thing of like, I need to hide this and no one could ever know you know, except, you know, you've three, well, four. Now that's Toby. Um, oh, no. Five. Pass your name. So, it was never like a thing. 

Like, I can never, you know, let the people know it, but it was more a thing of like, it doesn't need to be brought up. I don't care. I get that too. Yeah. But the way our world and society is going, the way even the Christian church is going, I was like, maybe no, I can't stay quiet on this anymore, right? It it's become too much of a almost a dividing factor. You know, people manipulating scripture that to say it's fine and all this and I was even on uh so on Twitter, follow Christopher Yuan and Christopher Yuan posted something, you know, talking about this same subject, right? And someone in the thread goes well, where is all these people that feel like this, that you are a Christian? And you have to be celibate, you know, not married, not engaging in sex. And that was some of the same gender, but maybe you're attracted to them. Where are all these people who you claim follow this process? And I'm like, I just sat there for a moment. 

I, I debated typing it out but I was like, you know what right now, not the appropriate medium, Twitter with the limited character set is not the appropriate medium to have that conversation. Yeah, it really isn't. Yeah. And so I was like, no, I'm gonna pass there. There, there's wisdom in knowing when to have those conversations and what not, when not to as well. And doing a a tweet is definitely not a spot to have that conversation. 

You can let the guy shout out into the void all he wants knowing that he is incorrect and just let him do his thing. I'm gonna say it's gonna, it more often than that, those little tweet wars just, I mean, person is just gonna bark and bark and not have anything, like, even consider anything you say anyway. So it's like, so I was like, you know what, not even gonna bother with that and just move on. But, and, and that's why I said right at the beginning I was like, hey, if you know me personally, if you have my phone number and you want to have more of a conversation on this, I have a feeling, I know a couple of people who will, um, you know, feel free. This isn't, uh, this isn't a thing where it's like, hey, guess what, I'm a pariah and all of a sudden you're gonna catch AIDS. Ok. This is, that's this, that's not what this is, uh, guarantee. 

You do not have any of those STD S, um, let me add a side note. Yeah. Oh, man, when I go to the doctors. Oh jeez. Yeah. Do you know how much flack I get for not being sexually active. Yeah. Like I want, do you get that flack as well? 

Well, I don't go to the doctor. No, as far as going to the doctor. No, I mean, I've never had that from the doctor. I honestly, I can't remember the last time I was ever asked that by a doctor. Oh, yeah. That, that was like part of the questionnaire. They're like, how many sexual partners have you had in the past 12 months? I go zero and they go, how many have you had over your lifetime? Zero? And I, I get, I get so much flack back from, sorry, just a random to me. 

Just a tangent on that. And it just, I was like, why, what the heck is going on? Why, why are you mad at me at me about that? Or I have some sort of weird judgment to I'm like, I'm like, first off, why is that on your questionnaire? That's weird. They also, I mean, I guess they also ask other things too. Like, how many guns do you have in your house? 

They ask that now, I ain't ever going to a doctor. So just who needs the doctor? An apple a day? Keeps the doctor? We doesn't work like that. But yeah, yeah. My doctor asked that too. 

Ask that question too. How many, how many guns do you have in your house? I'm like, and I tell him I'm like, that number does not matter to you. Yeah, that, what does that have to do with my health and me coming to see you? I don't know. But yeah, that, that, that's entertaining and I'm not gonna wear a gun shirt if I ever go to the hospital. Yeah. So because wow. Ok, man, sorry that, that was just a random tangent on that because I was just like, but yeah, but go back to your question, you know, just, yeah, when, when someone tells you that, you know, awesome. Like you did, don't treat them different. 

Yeah, they're still the same dude. It's well, same dude, woman, whatever, same person. They're still the same person that, you know, now you just know a little bit more about them and you, you know, I'm and I'm not saying, you know that, you know, someone saying that they have this issue means that they're gonna be perfect on things, they're gonna stumble, they're gonna fall, they're gonna, and that may look like a myriad of different things, you know, maybe it's porn, maybe it's them actually hooking up with someone. Thankfully. I haven't done that. I haven't gone that far and I thank God for that thankfully. Um But, you know, don't expect them to be this perfect little person unless you also expect yourself to be this perfect little person who never struggles with anything there. The whole, what was it? The, the hall was a verse about like being the first to cast a stone or he without sin, let them be the first to cast the stone or, or more specifically, you know, like before pulling the speck out of your brothers, I pull the, or? 

Yeah, more specifically, stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so just remember that because these people are not all of a sudden different in people that if you like them before, guess what, you're probably still gonna like them after. Yeah. Yeah. The, their interests haven't changed the things that they enjoy. 

You just now know more things that they have interest in. Yeah. Yeah, in a weird way. But yes. Yeah, whatever. Um, man, I guess to, I guess now at this point to kind of close her down unless there's a lot more you want to talk about. Um, we got through all your questions, huh? 

Well, some of them you answered as you were going already just talking about other stuff and I was just like, no, I'm just not even gonna ask this one now anymore. Um, but like one, it was funny, one of them was how do you respond to those that say, pray the gateway and you answered that? Pray it's like, nice. But, uh, it was for those, like, so that are Christians that have S S S S A, I don't know which one I want to say more. Um, pretty much just a message. I don't know to them as far as whether they've been, you know, hurt from the church or if they're afraid to tell people in the church as do, I mean, I guess what are the best ways to kind of go about that? And obviously most importantly, I mean, just living the granted. 

Yeah, if they are a Christian living life honoring to God sort of thing, I guess. Yeah, encouragement and advice on any of that kind of stuff. Ok. So that's a big question there. Yes, it is. That's why it's my last one, last one. Well, the last one was going to be, how do you, I, well, like, what's your identity or how do you identify a sort of thing? But I was like, yeah, we answered that one earlier. So that probably would have been like top of my list on my question list. 

Yeah, I thought about it. I was going back and forth. I was just like, you know what? Because I, like I wanted to end it with, with, with the identity being in Christ at the end being like, but, but I think that that's important to talk about early because that's also foundational for the rest of the stuff that you talk about. That. That's why I, I, I brought that up as early as I did because that is essential in that regard. So your last question, just to make sure I'm paraphrasing this correct paraphrase the crap. No, just to make sure I'm paraphrasing it and understanding it properly is what is my advice to those who are dealing with S S A in the church and how maybe they should talk to people about it and what they're dealing with is that, is that correct? Was there more to it? 

No, that, and just, oh, like how to, honoring, how to honor God with that sort of thing. Which, I mean, it's kind of, I mean, you, if Josh would love to say, if you think about it, I mean, it's not necessarily too hard to figure out how you do that. But I mean, it, I mean, it's tough. It's tough for anybody to honor God in their life. So, I mean, it's no different than anybody else really. Yeah, exactly. So, before we get there, yeah, I'm gonna turn the table again on Aaron. 

No, I don't want it. Aaron's like, man, I, I, I, I was supposed to ask all the questions. Yeah. Well, no, no. So this is a question figure might as well ask now, get the answer. I haven't asked you before. 

So, hey, I love your reaction right now. Going on in the face. I'm really on the spot. You are on the spot. I'm gonna, uh, this is just a question of pure curiosity on this one. 

Well, I'm too dumb to know an answer for him. So, uh, you would have to know an answer because, oh, shoot it involves you. OK. So here's the question if I hadn't. Yeah. Who are you? Who am I? Can you see me? 

You can't see me, you can't see me. I'm on like green cameras. There's no green screen going on. So yeah, you could see your. So no, here, here's my question. 

This is just something I'm, I'm curious about as we've been talking today on this. If I had never told you this. Yeah. Would you have ever guessed it about me if you never made hints to it or never told you? Yeah. Yeah. This is just a, a curiosity question for me. 

That that's all this is. I mean, probably not because, I mean, even with, with lacrosse and like a couple, yeah, like the comments he made that I was like, hm, like, yeah, I guess, and like, until you brought it up again I was, I guess, yeah, I never really would have thought anything of it. Um, yeah, I mean, because, yeah, I guess you mean you had, well, yeah, it was a couple, it was, I thought it was like a couple attempts at, like, a relationship sometime after that. I thought, I don't know, I could, whatever, it don't matter. Um, but until you, well, yeah, once you brought it up again, I was just like, uh, I was like, I do remember comments in the past kind of to like about it. But then the same time I was like, hm, never thought anything really of it until, until you brought it up. I suppose. Yeah. I mean, well, with being a, you know, ok, the only thing would be because of the PC, I'm kidding. Oh, ok. Fair enough. Just kidding. No, that's, that's fine. 

I, I, I'm not gonna, I'm just making a joking. I, I, I'm not gonna call a hater joke, not gonna say anything. I, I, I find that funny. That's why I was laughing. Ok. So, no, I was just curious myself. I really, just as we're having the discussion we're like, did I ever give off any, any indication at all of my, my thing? I mean, you, you enjoyed guns, you know, shoot, you even had a cigar? Heck, yeah. Yeah. But that was the only reason I, I, all the scar. Yes. Guns have been a while. Yeah. I mean, oh, yeah, that was another thing. 

So, as far as, uh, and this was one thing that kind of, well, it set off other friends, I guess radars before it ever even crossed my mind but was how they would, um, dress up for church and whatnot or just kind of like dress in general. It's like you've never dressed in some, like, super, like, gotta be super fancy and stand out way or whatever and definitely not the stuff and all that kind of stereotypical, the stereotypical stuff. Yeah. I, I'm definitely not stereotypical in any way like that. No. Um, the, the only, the only way I would have been close was once you got Zea because her name was Queen before. Yeah. But, but then you already knew. So. Oh, that's true. So, yeah. No. All right. I know that the, the, I was just curious on that. If I, if there's anything ever that you're like, what the heck, what? No, that's different. Oh, my goodness. Ok. No, like I said, just curious on that because I was like, hm, I never asked the question and I was like, might as well ask it now while it's on the record, while it's on the record. Shit. Yeah. No. Ok. No. So I got your final question. 

You have no more questions outside of that. Nothing that came off the top of your head that nothing you want to follow up on other than, I mean, obviously from how I understand it or how I would view it, I haven't done anything against you in any sort of way ever since. Obviously. Well, I shouldn't say obviously, but I feel like I have to say it, obviously I love you no matter what, you're still the same brother that you were beforehand sort of thing. So, I mean, thank you one for opening up and being honest about it, been talking about it and one trusting me enough to actually share something like that without think. 

Well, I mean, maybe I did think I was gonna be stupid in AM and do something goofy. But then it was a risk. I was willing to. So that had been very understandable. Thought. It was, it was a very, uh, it was a very calculated risk because that didn't come, that didn't come early on in the relationship, in the friendship at all. 

That came once it had matured some, which we, as we talked about at least 10 years now. Yeah. Where it's been a good friendship. Yeah. It's crazy to think about it. I know. It is really crazy. 

So, I mean, other than that, yeah, just I was just reassuring on the record, but I still love you, man and I appreciate being able to have this conversation with you. So see in that thank you for it by the way. And I do love your brother and I think that actually that, that brings me to something here. That's very interesting. Um Just guys in general in general, I'll say I'm, I'm not even talking about if you're, you're friends with the S S A guy or whatever I'm just talking about in general. 

That's a very weird thing. Uh All, all the time for people to say, well, I love you. Yeah, that is. It really is. You don't see that between, between guys all the time. And when I say that to you, man, I say that in 100% nonsexual way, right? Yeah. Love isn't just a erotic, romantic thingy. You're right. There's a lot more to it than that there is. And I, I think a lot of people don't get that. And especially in our western culture now. 

And, you know, going back to your question of where you're always this way, blah, blah, blah. I think that there's a lot that contributes to that in this world. I, I talked about, you know, the porn usage, the abuse, but there's also guys out there that grow up without a father figure. There's a lot of guys out there either, you know, whatever you wanna call it, they're attractive guys, other guys. So S S a gay, whatever you wanna call it, right? A lot of that is them trying to find and this is why going back to that conversation in Pennsylvania, I cringed a little bit when your friend asked this when she goes, is it dad or is it daddy? Because they're looking for a daddy? 

Yeah, they're looking for a male figure to reassure them in their lives that they are man enough. They don't feel I'm not saying everyone, ok, saying some or they don't feel like they are worthy of being called a man. You see these guys who go who I'm not a man. Therefore I'm gonna dress up in this girly clothes and be a princess or whatever call you daddy and, and all this other stuff, all this very deranged things that they do or they will then be like, oh castrate me. So I'm the female that I deserve to be for you daddy and all that weird crap because they're missing that male role model. And that, and that's a big ep- epidemic across the board for both men and women where there's no father figures in their lives. 

The fathers are absent. There was a study recently done that showed that in households if they're single father or single mother or both father and mother. Do you want to guess? So, we know mother and father in the household together perform the best. OK. The Children end up the best. They end up in jail, the least they end up performing well in school, all this sort of stuff, right? 

They find a good solid job, they move on, they're stable. What's the second best performing category if you had a guess? Is it a single father? Yes. In fact, there was very little difference between a single father in a married couple, mother and father very, there was some difference but little, but very little difference in how the child outcome came to be. 

Fathers are very important. Fathers are important because they give reassurance to their kids on who they are. There's a multitude of books out there. You know, all these be a man books sort of deal, right? And a lot of them talk about the rituals, initiations that the father gives to the son to tell them that he is a man to move forward in life and how to move forward that he's doing something right, that he's moving forward and doing the right things to be the next man in the generation. 

There is a lot of that out there that it's out there for a reason. So we need that more. I'm not, again, I'm not saying all the guys in, in this situation are dealing with that, but there's probably a, a good chunk that are, some of it might be genetics, some of it might be as theorized the rise in microplastics and, uh, more Endor, um, estrogen, lower testosterone, lower testosterone. But they're talking, there's some chemicals that cause estrogen spikes while they're still a fetus in the mother's womb. They could be playing havoc with some of their symptoms or their genetics in that. So there's a lot out there more than just, I find that guy attractive. The, some of it's psychological, some of its physical, some of it's genetic, some of it's chemical, some of it's indoctrination in all honesty. So you, you can't go to a guy and be like, well, you're gay because blah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of reasons and even if he's that stereotypical, you know, doing the yes or, you know, dressing very, um, as you put it, it is like, fashionably sort of thing, kind of, you know, showy. Yeah. Like they're, they're like, dressed to the nines, like everywhere they go, like everything is meticulous, you know, that's, that's why they had that had, or have they might have it still, I don't know, uh, the Queer Eye for the Straight Guy TV show where it's a bunch of gay guys that go to a straight guy and, like, basically spruce him up, like, give him to dress nicer, clean up the house the way the gay guy would and all that, you know, that all those stereotypical things. And I'll say this if you have a buddy that maybe they haven't talked to you yet, but maybe you suggest they are because, well, as you put it, they, they kind of trip the radar because stereotypically like they're, you know, they're limer as, as, as the tradition says, maybe they, they speak in a very high voice, a girly voice. 

Maybe they go is like the lisp like a thing that is, I mean, it is, especially if it's really like uh I guess exaggerated. Yeah, it could be very stereotypical again. I'm talking about stereotypical things here, right? The lisp the lim, the dressing to the nines, the everything's in order organized, the effeminate, you know, actions, whatever it may be. A lot, a lot of younger guys would like to keep like, except for like maybe their eyebrows like hairless. No, thanks. Um Yeah, we're not gonna go into the whole subcultures because there's a lot of subcultures in the gay community, but we're not gonna go there right now. Um But so if, if you're, if you're friends with someone like that and you know, they're like, well, maybe they are, maybe they are, maybe I should ask him, you know, what probably is the worst thing to do to that person at that point in time is be like, hey, you're like, man, what's, what's, what's going on? What's your deal? Yeah, because that's gonna cause them to freak out and freeze up, especially if they're not ready to talk about it. Mhm. And, and that's true with someone in the church and out of the church both. 

Uh, you know, so I, I, I wanted to say that as well because that is something that, you know, some people will go. Well, it's my, it's my, I need to go find these people and bring them to Christ and, and do this and teach them what they're doing wrong and do that and be like, dude, examine yourself real quick. But yeah, examine yourself real quick also. You do this to rough. You're too direct and they're not ready to address this yet. 

You might scare him away from the church because that might hurt them at the same time and, and I hope I never come across a person like this. I haven't personally yet. Mm. Ok. If I come across a person in the church who was like, oh, you're dealing with like S S A or you're gay or whatever, like straight to hell for you, you know, those people, we need to have a conversation, trust me. It's gonna be hard to love them if I'm being honest. But that's a conversation that needs to be had because remember what I said, the identity is in Christ. 

It's not in who I'm attracted to. Hm. The Bible is, is very clear about things. And one of the things that's very clear is not that you are to be condemned for what you are when I say what you are like who you're attracted to that. But by the actions that you partake in. Yeah. You know, otherwise, otherwise any guy out there probably is gonna be, should receive that same. 

You're going straight to hell lecture from that guy. That guy. Yeah. Right. Being attracted to guys doesn't is not the greater sin and being attracted to someone of the same gender. I I've actually heard that from some self proclaiming Christians that being attracted to guys is a sin but lusting after a woman is OK because it's of the natural order. Yeah. So just if I ever find out that I know someone like that, we'll have a conversation, we'll have it in love. 

No, it's not gonna be a punch down because you don't, you don't, you don't change minds by having a punch down. You have you change minds by having a conversation, an honest, an honest conversation. And it, it's gonna be one of those things that might be uncomfortable for people and we need to learn how to have those uncomfortable conversations get out of the comfort zone. Yeah. So, I mean, if, you know someone that's like that first off, I mean, that, that's hard if you personally know someone like that and maybe you're not ready to have that conversation personally, maybe you're struggling with that. 

Maybe you're dealing with that and you're like, I know people like that in my church who are, like, firing something for you, buddy, you're, you're, you're, you're dead. You know, and, and that's hard and I, I don't fault someone who's maybe like, I want to live biblically. I want to live according to how the Bible says, but I don't know how to get help. I feel for you that person because thankfully I have not been put in that place. Um, these people on online I talk with, unfortunately, they have been put in that place. Some of them, uh, you know, it, it, it, and people are like, well, this is a harmless thing. 

That's another conversation, you know, all entirely, but there's way too many people that we see in the public eye and not, not in the public eye as well where, you know, these guys that are all like, oh no, if I'm gay, I'm gonna divorce my wife, leave my Children. We talked about how dads are very important in the family structure, how they're very important for the proper upbringing of their Children. And all of a sudden they're leaving them to pursue their life with another man. Hm. And it just, it, it's devastating to that. Right. So, that's why I said it, it, it, it, it's not just AAA thing where people go. 

Well, it's not hurting anyone bull crap. It's hurting kids. It's hurting families. This needs to be a part of a larger conversation of things. And again, I want you to understand. I'm not saying, oh, just because you're gay means you're a evil person, blah, blah, blah. 

We're all born sinners, straight out of the womb. Congratulations. Whether it's ac section, natural birth, grown intest tube, whatever you share the genetic history with Adam and Eve. Guess what? That's why, that, that's why Christ was unique because he didn't have that genetic history linking back to Adam and Eve. He wasn't uh freeborn with that curse in him. OK? So that, that's what I say, you know, because because people will hear that and go, oh, you hate gays? You hate gays? I'm like, dude, no, honestly, no, I don't. 

I'm not gonna say like I want to be in love with one but I love them. I love as a group as people I know personally and I'm talking like my cousin, my cousin's kid. Some people I know personally that interact with at work. They are great people. I'm not, I'm not gonna be like all their murderers and child molesters or anything like that. 

They are furthest from that. OK? They're still human. They still and this is when we had that conversation a while back where I said they deserve because of human love and respect. Ok? They still deserve that 100%. 

Now, the monsters out there that actually hurt Children, uh whole of the conversation. But I'm saying these, these normal people, they still deserve love and respect. But what if you claim to be a Christian? There's certain standards that God says, hey, these must be load. Yeah, I'm sorry that your flesh desires to go a different way. But it, it, it can't be, it can't be affirmed. And yeah, that might be a personal, hard struggle for you, especially if you're dealing with that. And there's, there's questions out there, you know, and I don't have all the answers to all the questions like what happens if you know a married couple, two guys, they become Christian. What do you do? Because if they wanna follow, if they go, we want to follow what the Bible says, what God says. 

Ultimately, that is prior divorce for them. That doesn't mean they can't remain friends, but they can't be romantically involved in that, right? You know, and that's where I see Christians starting to blur the line. Some that I, I don't know if you've ever heard of this and it's a dangerous practice. I think they call it covenant, um what they call it covenant friendships or something like that. It sounds all nice and, and, and good Right. But when you look at it what it is, it's basically marriage without the sex. Hm. So, it's like two guys. Yeah. They'll live in the house, they'll cuddle, they'll share finances, they'll, you know, make out, they'll do whatever they'll basically be dating. Just no sex. Yeah. And they're like, oh, it's fine because we're not doing sex. 

You're building an emotional attachment to that other person. Yeah. Eventually, whether we like to say it or not, it's going to lead to intimate relationships. Yeah. OK. Let's not fool ourselves. 

Especially two guys, two guys. OK. Yeah. So, so that's the thing that I think that's, I forget. Exactly. But I think it's uh proposed by the Reverb Conference. 

Reverb or Revo conference, not Reverb Revo. I knew it was something like Reverb Revo, it's Revo conference. Like they promote that sort of thing and it, and everything. 

I'm like, you're playing with fire there. It's dangerous. It seems cool. It seems like, oh, this is gonna meet my physical intimate needs and then you realize, yeah, it is because you're, you're, you're, you're gonna cause issues, you know, it's, and that's why I'm like, nope, I can't even entertain stuff like that. But to the guy out there who, like I said, is going back to where I started out here, you know, in the church that they don't feel safe to talk to people like that, you know, find, find a community, you be it online um and I can post the link to this community. Um And, and I don't have the Discord Ring thing on, on, on, on it right now. So I can't tell you the, like the group name, but I can put that on this episode. Join there. There's a group of guys just unfortunately, timing is horrible for me. But maybe now with my new software, I can actually do this every Monday at six PM Central. 

They meet for Discord call, hold each other accountable, talk about the week that happened, pray for each other and everything. It's, it's wonderful. You know, now, obviously you can't just be like, you know, be like, oh, I'm gonna join this community and everything's gonna be good. I always take things with a grain of salt, always kind of check things out and make sure things are good because there's always, you know, make the best wise decision for you, you know, make it biblical, make it, ask God if this is the right thing to do and make sure if there's anything that you think is like, hm, this is odd then, then stop doing it, you know, but for the guy who, you know, maybe only has it on like, you know, like that and maybe their local church I feel for you man. It's, it's rough enough without a local church community to support you. 

Mhm And hopefully there's some guys in your life that you can talk to that you're close with, that you can have those conversations with. And if not sounds so cliche, I know because you know, a person in that position is probably and asking God, hey, could you take this away from me forever? But maybe in, instead of asking that in the rotation, ask God bring a friend along that can encourage me and I can encourage them because I guarantee you and correct me if I'm wrong here, I guarantee you there are things that I struggle. If they're different than you and you different from me. We've each had our own experiences, but at the same time, along the way, we've helped each other, we've grown each other stronger. 

We've held each other accountable. We know where each other's falls are that we do. You know where mine are? I know where yours are at the end of the day, like you said earlier. It's both of us trying to hold each other on that path towards Christ. Mhm. I don't care how much of an introvert you are. 

Everyone needs that needs someone to help them because alone you will fall. There are too many resources available online and makes it too easy where you will find your stuff. And, uh, yeah, you won't, you, you won't, you won't leave the house for the weekend. You'll be like, oh, it's Monday. I gotta go back to work. What I do all weekend. 

Oh, I spent it watching porn and in a chat room. I can't tell you and ashamed to say this how many times that was true for me in my younger twenties. Yeah. Hm. I literally spent my life away involved in that world before I started saying no, I have to get serious about this. So, yeah, that resources. 

I, I I'll just put, put this out there, you know, obviously I, I'll link the, the Discord Group. Um, some books I highly recommend uh Christopher Yon, his two books um out of our country. That's the one with his mother and him writing. They take uh turns writing chapters from basically the long story of how Chris came to Christ and how his parents came to Christ as well. And it, they, they take the story from each other's perspective. One chapter at a time. 

It's really cool um Chris book, I think. Yeah, it came out last year. Uh Holy Sexuality. You know that there's a bunch of podcasts and that, that you on is on, but there's other people as well that deal with it. I'll say this as well. Be careful where you listen online as well because there are people out there much. Like if you're having trouble finding someone at your local church to be supportive, who will say, oh you're dealing with this, that must mean you're not saved. 

Oh, you're dealing with this, that therefore you're stolen, sin dealing with this. Therefore, this da da da da and they'll, they'll make all these statements. I'm gonna say this with this statement as far as I can tell based on how I read the scripture and I want to be corrected if I'm wrong. So if I'm wrong, you know, please tell me where I'm wrong. And um I'll, I'll change here identifying with Christ being tempted for same sex, but abstaining is not sin as far as I can read the scripture. 

That's, that, that's where I land. But if I'm wrong, please let me know. Help you know, because that's the thing. Scripture is the key. Not how I'm feeling. 

Not my personal opinion. Scripture in God. Hm. That trumps all my personal opinion needs daily squat compared to what the scripture says about it. So to answer all your questions, you nailed it. 

Yes, that and more. No man. So there was another question I thought of but I'll save that for after. No, no. It's a stupid silly question. Ask a stupid, silly question. Hm. So from God. So you said that uh that uh pastor video or whatever, the whole weird stripper? What? Yeah. Oh yeah. His Jesus is his favorite stripper video? Ok. Yeah. Um No, not, this has nothing to do with Jesus being a stripper. That's, that's awful. Um Gosh, I hate my mind. So would it still be a sin for, for a gay man to go to a strip club or? No, I'm assuming you mean a heterosexual strip? Club. Well, I guess so. 

A woman, yes, that's true because, yeah, they make, they make, yeah, that's right. The reverse. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, the, uh, Discord group that I'm a part of it was actually started by a guy. 

He actually used to be a gay male stripper and then he got saved. What? Yeah. Oh, so just throwing that out there, you know, so this guy, you know, he's been out there as well. He kind of, you know, he knows what he's doing with and in all honesty and fairness. 

Um, if like I saw him out in the street and how he acted, I'd be like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Very, very stereotypical. But again, he grew up like that the high pitched voice, um, wigs all the time, the mannerisms and all that very much. I was like, I saw a couple of videos like I, yeah, I'll show you a video later and, and, and I, I think you'll pick up on it right away and I was like, ok, but anyways to, to go back to your question so stupid, would it be an issue? Because then you can go and not be tempted and you can talk to these friends? 

Gosh, that's just so dumb. So that, so this makes, um, a couple of assumptions. Yes, it does. OK. OK. Assumption one is that this person that you're talking to going into a situation that he, he's 100% like on board, just dudes only like there's no, there's no, there's no, I, I, I is the culture we say there's no bisexuality in it, right? OK. Um There's none of that in there. 

It's just 100% you know, only men, only if that was the case and therefore that it was not temptation at that point. It'd be like what was the difference between him and going on to the, the beach? A new beach? Because he's not, he's not gonna be lusting after them. Right. This is true. He's not gonna be wanting them in any way. 

He's not gonna be desiring them. He's not gonna be, feel like fantasizing about it. Right. Right. He's probably gonna be fantasizing about the bodyguard, the male bodyguard or any good looking dudes on the beach. 

Well, I'm saying, I'm saying the body guard at the club, you know, like the bouncer, I've never been to one. So I'm assuming there's a bodyguard slash bouncer or like maybe a bartender or something like that. That might be where he then has the issue, which at that point, then it's still an issue. Yeah. Well, they, yeah. Well, what if they're not in the equation? 

See, but at that point, a straight guy could go there too and not have to worry about saying if they were strong enough to resist. Well, ok, see now this also depends, you know what? No, because the straight guy is gonna go in there and he's gonna look like, go, oh, the second he takes that second glance, that's when, you know. Yep. Done. See. But then it depends on what club you go to because I hear, I guess this would go in the whole category of body shaming, but not all the clubs have, I guess you would say the prettiest of women, but no idea. 

If you're going there for it, then you're obviously in for the wrong thing. Yeah, exactly. If you're, if you're already seeking out, you're doing something that you're already in bad condition, the only way that could possibly work is if the guy is 100% gay. No, no one. I know nothing. Gosh, still would not recommend. 

No, I just, I was just like I found, I found a loophole. Well, you found a loophole. Congratulations. Why would he, why would that guy even want to go with that? Go, go with, go well for the, the Christian man? 

I mean, then he can go and be like, hey, like I'm not interested in you. So this is how, you know, I'm actually trying to talk to you about. There's probably better ways to do that. I know there is, my mind is just trying to entertain stupid ideas. Are you saying then the Christian woman who's only attracted to women? No, I'm saying that the Christian woman who's only attracted to women, same sex, attracted only to women could go into the gay male strip club and do the same thing. Precisely. Yeah, it's not gonna work out. Yeah. Not recommended at all. No, not recommended. Ignore everything. I just said it was all trash. 

Interesting way to end it. That's why I was gonna save it for after, because then I wouldn't have to. But, man, uh, anything else that came up your mind, no matter how crazy it may be. No, I'm, I, I shut it off after that. I was like, and you're done, you're cut off mentally today. All right. Oh my gosh. Fair enough. Yeah. Well, this is um this has been a wild episode. Yeah. Congratulations Aaron. You did. Well at starting and keeping the conversation going. You did? Oh, you did. Good. Maybe we'll have you leave more episodes in the future. Joy. Ok? I'm up for the child. 

Oh, I'm not saying that I, no, I, you ain't getting that on record on me. Uh Even though you kind of just Yeah, I, I, I kind of just did, man. You did. No. Um Yeah, if you got nothing else, I say we go ahead and wrap this up. Heck yeah, but yeah, want to put on record. Yeah. Love you brother. Thank you for not treating me different. 

Thank you for being consistent in how you act. Yeah, I appreciate it. I really do. I really do um likewise. I love you to me and, and I, I want you to know, you know, I don't take offense to whatever you do when, when you and Josh go little there we get stupid. Yeah. No, I, I get, I, I don't take it as an offense because I know you're not trying to be offensive. 

I know you two are just, you've had that weird jokey relationship since, ever since high school. Yeah. So I get it. So I'm not at all offended or anything. If anything, I'm like, I'm glad that you too can be like that around me even knowing that. Yeah, I know it. Hm. What do I said to Josh? Now, what you ever thought about that? Oh, I see. Interesting. Yeah. Get to turn the tables on him because he wasn't able to be here for it. Well, that's Josh. Yeah, it is. He had to go do stuff, had to or decided to. Yes. Yeah. But no, I, I, I, I, in all, honestly, in all seriousness though, you know, because that helps. Mhm. Because then I don't feel like all of a sudden. 

Oh, but now, um, they know and things have to be different. Now, now I'm, I'm ousted from the normality. Right. When all I want is normal. Yeah, that's how it goes perfect. All right. Well, thank you all for, uh, watching the, these two episodes. Yeah. Yeah. Quite long episodes longer than I wanted episodes. Yeah. Um, again, if you know me personally, um, and, and you go, man, I heard something in here and either you took offense to it or you're like, what? 

I have more questions. The first off didn't mean any offense at all. I mean, what I say when this is a really a conversation that we're having here for people within the church, uh, people outside the church, that's a whole other conversation. Um, then if you know, me personally feel free to reach out, let's go, I don't drink coffee but we can go grab a coffee and I'll find something to drink. Um, go grab lunch, dinner, whatever, have a conversation about this. 

Um, because I'm, I'm always willing to share more if you have more questions and who knows if I get enough uh questions from people. I know, maybe I'll just compile them and we'll have another episode in June or something. Who knows? I'll have Aaron read the questions off again or something. We'll see. There we go. No, no idea on, on how this is gonna go. Um But yeah, if you know me, don't make it weird, please, please don't, you can easily make it weird. Please don't make it. I'm just the same person as before. You just know a little bit more about me and mother. If you ever watched this on the Hi.