Knowing God - Chapters 19 + 20 Part 1

Welcome back to Use Your Words podcast, where Aaron has actually read a book for months. it's been a few months now, delaying the inevitable, delaying the end of the book. But here we are once again to discuss chapters nineteen and twenty of Knowing God by JI Packer. 

Now, why the expression on your face there, mister Jones? I don't know. OK I was just curious because all of a sudden you had a weird expression on your face. Well, weirder than normal. And then so I was like, wait, what's going on now with him? 

Yeah, i've read books. Just having a hard time with this one. It it's a very thick book. I am not. I I should have never done this one. Why? This is way above my brain level. 

there's a book I do have a recommendation for you on. It is at your brain level and it's the little Einsteins or the Bernstein Bears. No, actually. And it is unaudible. Or Bernstein whatever. Yeah, it is unaudible. it's unaudible. i'm about three quarters away through it myself, but it is a good book. 

What What is it? Why do you have this like look on you like like this Like you're waiting for a hammer to fall or something. This is a book that you said you're going to beat me and getting through even though no what for you. OK that's not on audible yet. Oh, OK But I am still going to beat you on that book anyways, for sure, because i'm a couple chapters in already. So. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't started it. So it is inaudible. Yeah. it's by John Lavelle. 

I do. I don't know who that is. You don't OK Warrior Poet Society. what's I i've heard that before, but I don't know. So the book is called The Warrior Poet Way. The Warrior Poet Way. Yeah. 

Cool. it's been a pretty good one. I have about it says here two And a half hours left in the book oh nice and it's read by John. You know, i've got a book too. what's that? 

The Art of War. The Art of War. Really. 

You expect me to believe that you read that? I don't know. I haven't read it yet. Like, I haven't i've i've picked it up and dabbled at it, but I haven't actually read it. it's very short. I i'm i'm assuming you obviously know what it is. Yes. Yeah. OK it's on Zoo. 

Yeah. it's a it's an old. it's it's a very, it's a standard. it's just it's on my list. I haven't read it. I had look. Yes, it's on it. 

it's on my cousin, December. Audible had a two for one sale. OK If you had credits, I should say so I had three credits, so I was able to get six books. Oh, wow. OK That wasn't from then, but yeah, so. But yeah, it's a thirteenth chapter book. 

Real short, real small. The Art of War. Oh, Art of War. it's thirteen chapters. Yeah. Oh, it's just like poetry. 

it's philosophy or it's Yes. Oh, I thought it was like a poet poetry book type thing. it's poetry. that's philosophy. Philosophical. Yeah. OK Because, yeah, I have sleep. 

Our friend gave it to me and he was just showing me like how much the actual book is versus the commentary for it. I was just like, so here's the description, the summary of the Art of War. OK the oh, the Art of War. OK The thirteen chapters of The Art of War, each devoted to one aspect of warfare, were compiled by the high ranking Chinese military general, strategist and philosopher Sanzu. 

In spite of its battlefield specificity, The Art of War has found new life in modern age, with leaders in fields as wide and far reaching as world politics, human psychology, corporate strategy finding valuable insight into the time worn words. Yes. So it's not poetry per southeast it's philosophy of war, over thirteen chapters. 

that's awesome. Yeah, so listen that. i'm surprised you would recommend that, but OK no, that's that's just what was being given to me to check out in case that would be something interesting to go over. But the Warrior Poet way. If you want a quick summary on it, it has. 

This is its subtitle of it, of it. The Warrior Poet Way. A Guide to Living Free and Dying. Well, interesting. 

that's short and sweet. To the point. Yep. 

But that's not what we're here to discuss today. No, we're here to discuss chapter. The long. When I say long, I mean I was reading through this book and I was like, wait a minute, did they skip a did I miss the chapter heading to chapter twenty No. 

I was only about halfway through chapter nineteen and I go, oh boy, and I continue reading. And then then I was like, let me see how many. I was like, oh boy, this scrolls for a long time till I hit chapter twenty That is a long one. So chapter nineteen Of thick of this of by Packer is called Knowing God. 

No, sons of God. Yeah, I meant to say chapter nineteen of Knowing God is called sons of God. There we go. OK And he he starts off right away with this where he says the richest answer I know is that a Christian is one who has God as a father, to which again this is, that's like sentence two of of this. Or is it. 

Nope. that's Yeah, that's sentence two of of this. Of this chapter. 

Because the first sentence is what is a Christian, right. it's a question. Yeah. But it's still a sentence. And then sentence two. And is this essentially because it's after a comma. it's after a comma. Yes, it is. So again, this is sentence two. 

I hadn't read further into the chapter yet. I learned was taking notes as I was going through it and I wrote this. Oh jeez. what's interesting then is for someone who grew up fatherless and doesn't understand what it means to have a father, OK how does this then apply to them? Because the idea of having a father is this foreign concept to them. 

And now later on in the chapter he does go well, people who say that, you know people grew up without fire blah, blah, blah. I was like i'm sorry Sir let me take your father privilege. And yeah I know spoken like a true millennial take it in the parlance of the common day. But but no I was like but in my head I was going OK your father privilege is showing no but but it is real. You know someone like Packer who or you who grew up with the father a hundred percent of the time you're not going to be know what it's like. 

for someone maybe who like was born and never knew their father you know was growing up that's a different dynamic i at least got to know my father part of the part of my life you know you know first fourteen years so i at least got that and even then that it was still that was still difficult not so that's was like it's like yes in in your mind intellectually i get why he's saying that it makes sense but that it's a it's a far different reality i mean that's why you that's why you have books now well i mean that's what the beyond beyond packer 's book well not oh i'm not looking at i'm just looking at the bible in general right but that's why you have books now like And I read this book. i'm trying to remember what it is off the top of my head, where basically it was saying how to learn to have God as your father, you know, because that that was a thing I kind of, in a way had to learn because that is what it is. But I think I can find this here, May Oh, Fathered by God, by John Eldridge. 

OK Like, that was a book I went through just to the kind of learn that as well. Just what does it mean to be have God as a father? What? What does it mean for that to happen? And it was geared specifically to those who maybe grew up with a broken home or grew up with, you know, what the father left or father died, you know, you know, including like my situation where my father died, you know, was what does that mean in that regard? Because it's slightly different, you know? And so I I can kind of come at this. 

From a different perspective, I I get it still. i'm not just discounting it, not at all, no discount at all. And so I think, yeah, it's still a good thing, but it is, it's one where I, when I think of it, I give a little different credence than maybe Packer does because Packer is oh, it's just so simple Da, da, da. But well, I think it's I don't know for me is I have like a hard time. I find myself, I guess, trying to see both sides of it, 'cause like to some degree it's I feel like it can be simpler than people make it out to be. 

Is it easy per southeast No. But it's not so complex where it's like, 'cause what if you have somebody that doesn't have a father, but then also does not have all of the, I guess, extra material to use? Like, so you were talking about how you had like a another book about like trying to have how you look at God being your father sort of thing. Like, what if they literally just have the Bible? Right. isn't that still just enough for the person? 

Potentially. But it but and here's where i'm coming from it, you know, again, this is where I go. You know it it it's a slightly different experience because he's talking about all this and he's making the assumption that someone who's reading this right grew up with the fire understands that the father does this this this this in the family and that where maybe that person. Yeah. Or maybe that, you know, again, me, Like I said, I grew up with a dad, so I kind of get some of it. But maybe someone who didn't grow up with art at all doesn't Like, for example, I was just watching MASH. 

Yeah, it's an old TV show. In case you don't know what MASH is. Do you know what MASH is? Yes. Oh, yeah, I do. OK Yeah. Like a military army or whatever. 

Army hospital in the Vietnam War. Yeah, because Hulu just released MASH and they upscaled it to HD So I was so happy. And then they just. And then January first they released a MASH reunion special. So I was even happier anyways. 

But I just got to the episode yesterday actually. Forgot that this episode wasn't even in there. And you have this guy who just been, he's in the hospital laying that, you know, he just had surgery on him, got injury of some sort, right? All these guys making fun of him. And you know Potter, I don't know if you remember him at all. No names. OK Colonel Potter, he's in. So i'm in season ten so near the end of the series, he's the guy who came in like season four or five, something like that. 

Anyways, as the CEO of the of the base of the hospital, older guy in the sixties he's a surgeon, kind of a father figure to the people there. Anyways, the guy laying there, you know, he's being made fun of by people on his own platoon because he didn't learn all these things from his dad. Like, not like, you know, whatever it may be. And like Potter sits down and they're talking, they're like, Oh yeah, I enjoy fly fishing, blah blah blah. And Potter goes, yeah, I tie my own flies, blah, blah. And the guy goes, yeah, I just buy mine. He goes, didn't your dad ever teach you how to tie a fly boy? 

He goes, I didn't know my dad ever. And you just saw immediately that look on his face like, oh, so your dad never taught you these things, right? You never knew what it was like. It just it just kind of hit home for me even more that that concept there. When I watched, when I well, I was more listening to it than watching at that point because I was working on other stuff. I was working on some notes for today and some other things. 

Oh, OK So it was just kind of off on the side playing on my phone when I heard that and I just stopped for a moment, I was like, yeah, that's how it is sometimes, you know, that's that's why there's this guy on YouTube. it's an older guy, older than me. I have to specify that because you think, you think you think you're old, old man. But he does tutorials for guys and he's like, this is stuff you should have learned from your dad. Sort of things. How to how to tie a tie, how to change a tire, how to do all that. And he just made YouTube tutorials on all those things. 

he's like things your dad should have taught you. And he and his YouTube channel is specifically for guys without fathers help, you know, helping them learn these things. Obviously he's not being a substitute for a father because he can't provide that thing that a father can provide for his kids. The guidance, the wisdom, the love, the acceptance and all that. Right. But he's trying to fill in some of those knowledge gaps. So. So yes, I get it. 

you're like, yeah, we should be able to get that concept of what a father is through the Bible, through whatever through. But there is also that there is there's there's a benefit to having like a physical in person father. Yes. So that's one way of putting it. 

I was going to say there is a void there for someone who is fatherless or they don't understand some of those concepts that we and I say we. i'm talking about you and me that we take for granted. there's things that we take for granted about that father, son or, you know, father, daughter, relationship if you're a girl. there's things that we take for granted about that that people who didn't grow up with a father or a father figure, you know, because someone maybe like they're born and their father died in an accident or something. And then, you know, someone came into the life as a mentor or a father figure or you know, a stepfather for, you know, that married their mother. You know, sort of deal, you know, those situation, one of those things. So a father, a mentor that's a father like figure or a stepfather literally a stepfather like walks in, you know and you know not really by blood but by merit or something like that. 

There is an advantage to having that and there's that relationship and that grounding there that is just assumed in this chapter that that that that's what I say, you know when I when I read it, there is that assumtion there with it you can still get stuff out of it even if that that's not the case where you don't have that right but. there's that assumption there, that that sort of familial relation or filia relationship is there. i'm just trying to think of what i've learned from my old man, I suppose. 

I don't know. i'm sure you've learned a lot. I mean, i'm i'm sure there is stuff. I think one of the most, the biggest things i've learned from my dad without him actually saying or teaching me or telling me about it, is just I guess it's one thing that i've noticed like looking back on, I don't know, like when he was, when he worked and stuff like that is just like, I know. Just realizing all the work that he has done to provide and keep well, obviously. Put food on the table sort of stuff and like kind of like what it takes to do that at times, especially when during like tough times. 

Like I guess for him like looking at how much he used to work and this was a good I guess example per southeast Like with him having late nights and doing a ton of working where I didn't see him much taught me like I guess I guess one of the things as a father providing for and working for your family sort of thing. I think also one of the biggest things also since he's especially since he's since he has been retired as the amount of well all the more time that he has spent I guess well hopefully studying and reading the Bible and trying to learn more and stuff like that like seeing him. Doing that a lot, I guess shows me the importance and of also getting into the word and reading it and studying it, especially if he's doing it as much as he's doing. 

I don't know. It just shows that there is something more to it than what you just obviously hear at church and just standard Christianese talk sort of stuff. I don't know. For whatever reason, that just adds more depth to to it for me, or emphasizes the importance of it more, even in his old age. 

And that's like, that's one thing that has also given me some, I guess, like sort of Peace of Mind and not feeling like complete failure per southeast Because it's like when i've talked to him about stuff like with just going over my head. But there's not a lot that necessarily sinks in, at least for quite some time, to realize that we're him and I are both quite the same in that way. it's like oh OK i'm not just a complete. 

Complete idiot. I might not be smart, but i'm not a lost cause per southeast so I guess those are probably some of the biggest things I think i've learned from the old man. As far as like, I don't know, honestly. I suppose having respect for people. 's property is something i've also learned from him to treat others stuff nicely and with respect and not just being stupid with it because he's taught me by destroying my stuff when i've been careless with other people 's stuff interesting i don't know i i don't know it's i guess i'm just like looking back like a lot of the stuff like as far as like tying a tie i've never learned how to do that right you know those are some there's a there's a lot of like the the stuff that's not important depends on the business you're in well it depends but you have youtube yeah like there's a lot of that like some of that sort of stuff can be learned through so many other people like you can still have father figure like one of my friends never had a good relationship with her with their dad. 

And her. But she had a father figure at church. Yes. She ended up developing one. I mean this was gosh years ago. 

So I mean and that's why I said father, father figure, adopted father, because any one of those are good. Those, those provide that right. Relationship. Yeah. Some of it is the peripheral stuff like tieing a tie. But some of it is that relational stuff. 

it's some of it isn't necessarily things that you learn directly, but you're you're taught through that interaction. And Yep, watching them live their life. Exactly. Yeah. So, which I mean, I, I, gosh, i'm curious now. Like I want to find somebody that I don't know, didn't have a father growing up and maybe just somehow was. 

I don't know, I don't know. Curious. Curious about what? If there's some, well, there's got to be someone out there that didn't grow up with a with a father, but then had a friend that introduced them to Christ and God and then had that be, I don't know, Difficult. See how? Well, yeah, and obviously being difficult, but it's like it's there. 

So I don't know. Yeah, Curious. i'm just telling you as someone who grew up with the fire only the first fourteen years and then, you know, it was hard for me. And i'm telling you this, you know, not as as example but as, you know, whatever. In my twenties I found it hard to imagine, imagine is not the right word. But to relate the fact that God was my father, right. I could. In my head that didn't work out because I didn't really have my dad during my, you know, my teen years. 

I guess you could say that fourteenth to eighteen twenty you know, when you're really growing, you know, kind of growing and going through this thing. So in my head that didn't click. It took me a while for that to click. I would say probably my late twenties early thirties is when that finally clicked on what that meant. 

Outlook you have of what a father is. Exactly, yes. So any who all that just from that one little sentence on a great start, so quickly he goes into it and he goes Sonship is not there for universal status into which everyone enters by natural birth, the supernatural gift which one receives through receiving Jesus. Cool. Yeah. What that's there's there's this gal on the news, like whenever it comes up about like religious EE stuff or whatever or something goes on like she'll say like, you know, we're all God, 's children And stuff like that but it's like no i mean we aren't we're his creation yes we aren't all his children so that's one thing that like always and like as soon as i read it's well what the fourth sentence of the thing was the idea that all children of god wait the idea that all our children of god is not found in the bible anywhere yeah yep so i was just like this one as soon as i read that i thought immediately of that just like how many people do just say this like oh we're god 's children yadda yadda yadda i was like nah no right and they further emphasize that here was this on page two O one Where it says sonship to God, then, is a gift of grace. 

It is not a natural but an adaptive sonship. And so the New Testament explicitly pictures it. And then they go in to talk about something that I didn't know about until I read this book and I did some research and it turns out to it is beyond true, and I am impressed. it's beyond true, Yeah. 

Which is the next sentence here when I mean black. Beyond true. Like, it's true. And then there's even more to it. it's just, oh, OK OK so in the next sentence, here it goes. In Roman law, it was a recognized practice for an adult who wanted an heir and someone to carry on the family name to adopt A male as a son, usually at age, rather than an infancy as his common way. Today. In other words, someone who had some money. 

Yes, when they were older and let's say they didn't have any children or buy one or they had children that they're like, ah, no, I don't want them to carry on my name, right, Right. They wouldn't go out and adopt A child. They would find someone like your age and say, i'm adopting you, Aaron. Oh, right. And adopt you. You then inherit their name. Inherit their name and their fortune, and you continue their family name line. 

Yeah, Which is kind of stupid, but they did it. Yeah. But remember, when we're talking about adoption now in the New Testament, we're talking about that as the cultural backdrop. Now, we're not talking about adoption as being adopted. When you're living a tiny baby. No. Straight out, straight out the womb, you're being adopted as this, as some adopt you're you're being adopted as someone who has great wealth and riches, adopting you to carry on the family name, right? 

Yeah, it's Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and it's it's that concept that they were adult men who were adopted, not children. And then someone else made a point here. 

Adoption meant transferring from an old authority to a new authority. And here's what they wrote in Roman law. A son. This isn't in the book, by the way. This is somewhere else. In Roman law, a son was the property of his father. 

He had no possessions of his own, and legally the father could sell him as a slaver, even put him to death if he wanted to. Roman adoption transferred a son from the complete authority of one father, slash master, to another father, slash slash master. The son can no longer inherit from his first father, and many commentaries say old debts were canceled. 

Start bringing that in, that concept of adoption into the New Testament and the gospel, and all of a sudden it starts becoming a little bit more clear when they talk about adoption. Why it is so powerful and so rich in that regards? So Paul is riding his stuff here in Romans articularly about adoption. With this as the background context of what adoption meant to the Christians in that time because they would be familiar with what adoption meant in Roman era in the Roman Empire. 

So that. So keep that in mind, you know, as you're as you're reading through this concept of adoption. Now i'm going to say what I say here Packer creates like bullet points under bullet points under bullet points under bullet points here about adoption. And it starts to get a little too into the weed, so to speak for me in some parts or actually went pages without highlighting because I was like, OK you're just repeating yourself in a in a way. But this concept of adoption, in that regard, it's kind of beautiful because if you think about it, I made sure to include that statement there as a foreshadowing of things, if you think about it so much here. 

Old debts were canceled when you were adopted and transferred from the authority of one to the other right through Christ. We are literally adopted. We our debts are canceled as we move from the authority slash master of death, Satan, to the authorities slash ownership of God. 

Yeah, that's pretty makes it even. Even All the more better there. Yeah, that does. That definitely adds a lot to it. 

All right. So what? No mind blown as we continue on through. I don't know if you have stuff highlighted here now. 

I mean, this is. I don't know. there's a few things like here and there. OK just going. I was just on two O two or talks about this. 

The whole spirit of the Old Testament religion was determined by the thought of God, 's holiness religion was. the fear of the lord more so like in the old testament i'm guessing that's what was going on or what it's getting at the constant emphasis was the human being is because of their weakness as creatures and their defilement as sinful creatures must learn to humble themselves and be reverent before god which i mean that's still a thing in the new testament right right i don't know that's where i don't know where i was just like yes go ahead we'll get to that more kind of he flushes that out later on here and i think maybe both me and you might have some similar comments on what he says later on the chapter. Based on what you said earlier before recording. 

Oh jeez, I don't remember what I said. I know that's why I OK But anyways of a goldfish continue on into the into the book then it does talk about it. It starts out the next section. But in the New Testament, things have changed, Yes. For the covenant which binds him to his people now stands revealed as a family covenant. 

Where is that? i'm looking. Oh, there it is. Yep. it's on page show two. Yes. Well, that's two or two or two or three. 

Mike says two or two, but it might be two or three in years regardless. OK Yeah. Anywho, it's under the heading a new relationship. Yep. All right. Yep. 

So it's continuing on now. we're now we're talking about new covenant, New Testament covenant, theology and that. And this is where this is where I disagree with this statement. And this is again going back to that second sentence in the chapter. OK it's on two, O three he goes but this is silly for in the first place it is just not true to suggest that in the realm of personal relations positive concepts cannot be formed by contrast which is the suggestion implicit here so what he's getting at is before that the paragraph before that it it says i've heard it seriously argued that the thought of divine fatherhood can mean nothing to those whose human father. was inadequate lacking wisdom affectionate affection or both nor to those many more whose misfortune it was to have a fatherless upbringing i have heard bishop robinson 's revealing failure to say anything about divine fatherhood and honest to god defended on the these grounds as a brilliant movement and commending the faith to a generation which the family life has largely broken down again this is all going back to sentence two my little commentary at the beginning where i'm like i'm sorry your father Your father privilege is showing to Packer. 

Yeah. I, I, you know, And what's funny, he goes, family life is largely broken down. This is written in the seventies I mean, it's even worse now. Yeah. How much worse is it now? 

fifty years later, right. Can you imagine? it's a lot more wide fifty years later. Yeah, i'd say it's definitely, obviously a lot more wide. Well, a lot more common and widespread than it was probably back then. Yeah. I mean, the concept has always been there. 

that's never something that's been gone. it's just on a greater scale now. Well, that's where I wonder if he's had friends that didn't have a father. I don't know. And i'm I would be curious as to what they would have said in response to this. Yeah. 

But i'll never find that out. So yeah, Yeah. I I, I don't know. So that's when that's why I wonder, like, I wonder, like, did he have friends that were fatherless or had horrible fathers for their upbringing? And maybe that's part of the reason as to why he has the ideas he does. And and his argument to why that's a bad argument is, well, many people get married resolving not to make the same mistakes that their parents made a marriage. 

i'm like at least you had both your parents there in a marriage, to use it as an example. You had a negative influence in that regard as opposed to a void right now, I guess for the, for the one who has a bad father example, you could say. You could say that's a good a one, to one comparison there right I said the only other thing i guess you'd have as a fatherless upbringing as as to like not having a father at all not a bad one just not one at all i mean i'd imagine you'd only to be able to learn from friends parents that? have parents if you hang out and spend time with any of your friends hopefully you can learn stuff from them but then that's another thing too i suppose is i guess like the biggest thing is like are they ever introduced to god and then do they ever well i guess read and learn about god being father and how he's a father to us and all that sort of stuff but and then the next it's still yeah OK go ahead and then the next statement and i literally just put false after this statement was this yeah the truth is that all of us have a positive ideal of fatherhood by which we judge our own and others fathers and it can be safely be said that the person for whom the thought of god 's perfect fatherhood is meaningless or repellent does not exist wait where is that Mine says two O four. 

it's What? It starts off with what? Oh, the truth is that all of us have a positive ideal of fatherhood by which we judge our home. Others fathers. Yeah. No, wait, how would? 

Yeah, so he says that the person for whom the thought of god 's perfect fatherhood is meaningless or repellent does not exist. No, there are people who definitely, I can guarantee. i've talked with these people before, one on one in when i was in college and other places where that? they do have those thoughts and feelings because of how they grew up with either a broken house or you know abusive father let's say yeah again take it for the context of which was written in back in the seventies i get it where it was a lot less what's going on now let's say do you have any comment on that Not at the moment, no. I mean, from what you said. I mean, yeah, obviously people have wrong or false, I guess. 

Well, just yeah, wrong outlooks and don't understand stuff. But it i'm trying to read it and I know my brain hurts. Your brain hurts? Yeah, always. Uh, huh. 

Yeah. Wow. Say what made your brain hurt with that? I don't know. I just don't I don't like his his phrasing and stuff. It just, yeah, it's phrased like an ABR song. 

that's why I don't listen to the lyrics too much. that's why I like Jonathan Young better. You can understand the lyrics well. Understanding the lyrics and having complicated lyrics are two different things i'd rather be able to understand than have them be cream of the cream. Epic, complicated cream of the crop. 

that's just me. That doesn't have to be you, Sir. You can have a completely different opinion. that's fine. Oh, yes. 

Save that clip. Oh, man. I know exactly what I would do with that. Oh, no. 

Oh, if you ever get married and then they go. Aaron, do you say I do play that real quick or somewhere? Oh, yes, you would. What would you do? 

i'd probably just laugh. All right. Yep. And your future wife would shoot me. 

Nah. Oh, she is. I mean, she is a hunter, so it's all right. 

I always carry, too. that's fair. Anywho, back to the book. 

it's going to be a cold. Western shootout at my wedding, I guess. Oh boy. Wedding and a funeral. 

Might as well get them two birds and one stone man till death till after you part. Wow, that was great. That didn't last long. 

Oh man. OK Anyways, so was there anything else in the? I shouldn't say anything else because there's a lot of this chapter that Continue was on with it because the next highlight I have isn't until the next like main headline, which is adoption, the highest privilege. 

Oh OK So I don't know if you have anything between my last this last statement I read and this one I just for myself. I just underlined it, underlined it. Wow. Underlined we're talks about First, fatherhood is implied authority, father commands and disposes. Second fatherhood implied an affection, the father 's love for the son. 

third fellowship. I am not alone, for my father is with me. Then fourth Which fourth is the last one, right? Where? Is there more? There might be more. 

No, that's the last one. Yep. fourth Father Fatherhood implied honor. God wills to exalt his son. Yep. 

And that. I mean, that's I guess, what how to be a Those are four things to how to be a father, right? And those are the four things that a fatherless person might not understand, might not have. And they're going to, they're going to understand. they're going to understand authority. OK yeah. authority 's a pretty easy one to grasp. But affection, whether you like it or not affection, they might not. 

Affection because there's the difference between affection and lust and, you know, being in love with someone. Oh, absolutely. Those are three different things, right? They might understand lust and love, but they might not understand affection necessarily. 

there's a difference between the affection from your mother and the affection from your father, especially for sons. But even then, you know, in daughters too, you know, there's a difference in how your, how your mother shows you she loves you, i'm sure. And there's a difference in the way your dad shows you that he loves you. Right. OK So yeah, i'd have to say, yeah, the the last three, the affection, fellowship and honor are probably the ones that people wouldn't get the most. 

Yeah. And if you can't understand those in the human context, it's going to be difficult to understand. As I say in a human context where there's someone there, it's harder to understand that. In the context, when there's someone you know, god 's with you all the time, but you can't physically see him, He doesn't manifest physically. 

He did that with Jesus, but that was it, right? We don't have that currently in this day and age. No. 

So that's why it's a little different. But that's why there's there's that extra hurdle there. it's not. i'm not saying it's impossible. Oh no. I mean, I guess the best, I would imagine the best way to get any of that is through the the church, the the body is where you'd get those things from someone within the church. Then yeah, But even then we're we're starting to fail that we're starting to fail. 

Look look, our, our young men are looking to people like Andrew Tate and that because they are promoting this like strong masculinity and they're like we want something and they turn there instead of to the guys in the church. Yeah, well i'm I mean obviously there's also, I mean it's it's spread around a lot more these days obviously than it used to be. But just like the. 

The cases of the nasty people in the church, for the guys that just like to, you know, diddle kids and all that kind of gross stuff or just do well, yeah, what, cheat with women at the church or whatever. And also, I mean all the bad examples, like that's probably the thing that gets the most highlighted. And people probably easiest to see is all the bad stuff that happens within the church. Then it's like, oh, I I don't want any of that to do anyways. Yep. Well, I don't want anything to do with that anyways. 

So, yeah, I mean, yeah, we're destroying our own testimony and witness to those of God from idiots in the church. Yes. All right. 

So, yeah, So you have stuff for adoption, the highest privilege. Yep. So then we we start going into this where he starts talking about adoption, the highest privilege. This is when we start getting nested bullet points and when it starts going crazy. But. 

Before we get there, a quick tangent. Yeah, all this talk about adoption reminded me on Twitter. It was back in October, November of last year, this whole big thing on Twitter that started creeping up in the Christian sphere of Twitter. i'm going to read you something and then I want your commentary on it because it made me think of this immediately when we start talking about adoption. Here I go, Yep. OK this is from a particular guy on Twitter. 

His name is Eric Kahn C O N C O N N No idea. This is what he wrote. There was no moral obligation to adopt children. Not from the ghetto Sudan or Russia, Contra the trendy movement led by Russ Moore and David Platt. The gospel does not require adoption. In fact, it is often unwise and detrimental to do so. 

Loving your own is natural, not sin. Yeah, what? Loving your own? Yeah, with naturalness. What does he mean by loving your own? Your own children? Your own. 

it's it's up for, you know, definition there. What does? Loving your own, what I can gather based on context is like loving your own children. 

it's OK You don't have to adopt. that's what she's kind of getting at. He also says many of the same people pushing adoption not a command were OK if you had few or no children biologically in actual command. Complete inversion of scripture in our words, he this guy isn't you know, because there's a lot of Christian organizations out there that are like, hey, adopt from these places. What, whatever. And he's like, no, if you're not having kids, you're not following Scripture. And if you're adopting, you aren't following Scripture. Oh, that's Oh. If you're adopting kids, you're not following Scripture, you know, and you're not having kids of your own. 

OK yeah. Now that you say it like that, it's like, oh, yeah, OK well, and the fact that he says, in fact it is often unwise and detrimental to do so. To do so, is adopting, right. 

Loving your own is natural, not sin. Oh, OK well, now that you just broke it down like that, when you say loving your own is natural, not sin, so he's saying that adopting is a sin. No, he's saying loving your own. Like, let's say, OK i'm just going to throw us out here. Right. let's say you had two children with you and your wife, whatever that may be. Yeah. And you decide to adopt someone. Yes. Adopt A kid. Right. 

From China. amy 's brother. Yay. OK What he's saying then he's saying, well, that's wrong that you were to adopt instead of having an our kid on your own. Oh, well, Right. OK So yeah, he. But yeah. So he's basically saying that adopting is a sin versus having your own kid. Yep. Yeah. So, yeah, sorry, I just when I was as we're going through all this about adoption and everything, you know that was you know part of the things that started coming up that's that's what I don't under. 

Why would it was this big old? It is So it is weird because like especially now, well, OK granted, like thinking, I don't know, trying to read the Bible within a year sort of thing. Whatever. And as i've been reading through Genesis, it's crazy to hear. Well, granted, obviously things were obviously very different at that time than there is today. 

I mean, people lived to be stupid old back then, but like hearing about, well, just Abraham and Sarah, they didn't have a kid of their own until they were late in years sort of thing. Like, it makes me think of. I mean, I have a family member that they won't Yeah, they couldn't like physically have a kid, Like for whatever reason. It just never worked out no matter how many times they the they tried together, right. 

So I believe they've adopted someone by at this point. So it's yeah, I guess like what do you do if you literally cannot physically have kids? Like, why is that? I I don't see adoption as a problem at all. No. These that's why I said these strange people here in the Christian Twittersphere are just weird. 

they're they're also like, yeah, they they get up in arms about other little things too. And i'm like really do you have not anything else in your world to do then? Clearly not. No. Or their sins are going, oh, you got to talk about people who dress with a scarf. 

Oh, no, that's pretty. that's pretty bad. Yeah. Scarves are not good. 

So, yeah, just, yeah, I I guess that that's really stupid to say that adoption is a sin versus having a kid to be, well, a natural. Yeah, we having kids naturally within, like like me when I was younger, right? And this was a thought. It was like if I ever got married or whatever. 

I wouldn't want to have natural kids because of my own genetic history is Agent Orange, right? I get that. Be like, Nope, adopt. there's enough kids out there anyways that need adoption that don't have family. There is. Well, there is a plethora of that too. it's tough. Guess what Those those kids become part of your family that not just like little accessories for you, they they're part of your family, right? They are. Yeah. I mean, I that is an interesting thing like that slightly been on my mind not I guess not a ton. What kids. Yeah. 

Like the. Well, a lot of having them is kind of scary. But like, I know for like some people that I know, they're very against like contraceptives or whatever, especially and like the Catholic sphere. Well, yeah, yeah, that's for sure. But like even just like OK like obviously like I am against like. 

Well, Plan B and stuff like that. I guess the only, like, preventative I would use as like a birth control per say, would be like a condom or something like that. But there's like people that I know that I even like. that's like, why like don't even like, you shouldn't even be doing that, right. Like if it happens, it happens. 

OK So we're going to get into birth control story hour with Aaron now. Yeah. So condoms. OK Yeah. Birth control pill for the woman. OK Or not, I guess. So what does that do? 

I guess, per southeast Like, I guess I don't have, it's not like a Plan B sort of thing where it like it once an egg is fertilized, it just washes it out. Is it or what is? I thought it was just something that just, I guess, prevents an egg from being fertilized. I don't know. 

All right, yay. Learning time. Wow. 

The things that you have to teach with Aaron sometimes are. it's stuff I haven't worried about looking into because I don't have to worry about it yet. All is I yeah, yeah, I guess the only thing I would ever plan on using would be, I guess supposed to be a condom as far as, yeah, any sort of birth control per southeast But that's where i've also learned that. I mean, you can obviously still try and have a kid as a couple. 

And even if you don't avoid or don't take any precautionary measures to make sure that you don't have a kid, you still might not have a kid. Well, and especially recently in the world right now, I think we've talked about this before. Touched on this before. Sperm counts of men are going down. Yeah, right. 

there's that, too. So, I mean, yeah. OK So birth control pills. Yes. let's get back to that. Tell me about them. there's two different. there's a couple different types. 

OK So there's the type that's typical, which is contains two different hormones, which is FSH follicle stimulant hormone and LH I can even pronounce it Luta Zing hormone, right. Whatever. OK Anyways, FSH and LH those two, right. OK those two. All right. 

The well, i'm sorry. Those are the hormones that are in there and then the birth control would suppress that. Those hormones, OK When that does is basically the chances of ovulation. what's ovulation? 

Yeah. Oh my gosh. all 's I know. I guess that I think I know about ovulation is like a woman 's like peak time of fertile, being fertile. What? What happens during an ovulation? I don't know. it's not about an egg being ready to go. 

it's an egg is released. Oh, an egg is just released. OK there we go. 

So if those hormones are suppressed, yes, then ovulation doesn't occur. If no ovulation occurs, what can't happen? The egg is not released of, which means it can't be fertilized. Which means no child. OK so I guess like as long as an egg isn't actually being fertilized and that life isn't created. 

Well, there's a different type of birth control as well. Yes? Which is a progistin only birth control. 

OK this sounds gross, but listen. That birth control pill causes the mucus and the cervix to thicken, making it more difficult to sperm for sperm to reach the egg. Therefore ovulation doesn't occur. OK or no? i'm sorry, Ovulation still occurs, but. But the egg. 's not actually released egg 's not fertilized all right so the if the mucus thickens yes sperm can't get through yes therefore it, can't get fertilize the egg can't fertilize the egg and then it just passes through well yeah the sperm dies and then the egg right well and the egg is fleshed out whatever yeah so so i guess in my mind as long as an egg is not actually fertilized i don't see an issue with it OK but as soon as an egg is fertilized and then you get rid of it in my mind that's Plan B Yes. Yeah. So I guess if the life, if there has been, if life begins at, well, I guess what fertilization, conception, yeah, that was the word I was trying to say And you end it after that, then it's wrong. 

But if you stop it before any of that ever happens, I personally don't see an issue with it. But that's where i've had some friends just say, well, if God wants to happen, it'll happen. If he doesn't want it to happen, it won't happen. But that's all, like, in my mind, it's like, OK I don't know. That just seems kind of ridiculous to me to have that sort of an argument. Yeah, that's that's the very Catholic approach to it. 

that's why, like, they don't use condoms or anything like that. And then so because it's like, I mean, he's given us minds to be able to think and be smart, wise about stuff. Like we don't have to just be carefree and be like, oh, if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't doesn't don't worry. 

I won't go to you for everything. Go to your dad? No. 

Go to her dad. No, I don't wanna. i'll go to somebody else tonight. 

i'll figure that out. they'll tell conference all of us in and they'll tell conference all of us in. OK That sounds great. 

Me, your dad, and her dad will all be on a video call with the person you go to. Oh my gosh. Well, you'll have fun with that. 

i'll enjoy all the conversations later. I mean, wouldn't be the worst one anyways. So, adoption. Yes, it's cool. I like adoption. 

There ain't nothing wrong with adoption. OK here's what I underlined here under this segment. What did you underline as justification is the primary blessing? So is. So it is the fundamental blessing in the sense that everything else in our salvation assumes it and rest on it, adoption included. 

And then he goes on to say, but this is not to say that justification is the highest blessing of the gospel. Adoption is higher, which is a very weird way to put it. But you know what? that's OK Yeah. 

Was there anything else in this segment that stuck out to you? They are part that stuck out to me. And it's only because I was like if you were here alive, mister Packer, we would have words and it's the right before adoption, the basis for our life. He says this when one sees depression, randomness and immaturity in Christians, one cannot but wonder whether they have learned the. health given habit of dwelling on the abiding security of true children of god not all of that is always because of that spiritual issues sometimes it is a physical mental issue right that that that's why i said me and him would have words we wouldn't come to fisticuffs or anything but we'd have words yeah and i guess that's one thing you have to also take into consideration is obviously they didn't have the Medical advancement back then that they do today or say no. Well granted, I mean he was alive until twenty twenty but you know but when the book was written, when the book was written in and of itself, yes. 

Yeah. I mean there's been, there hasn't been a whole lot done to it for like changes as time goes on. I thought there was a couple like small minor changes. Yeah. Additions to the book but very minor. Yeah. Not complete. Full on, like anything Rewritten that. And as you get older, you can't comprehend newer stuff anyway. So whatever. can't teach an old dog new tricks, I guess. Yep. 

I mean, I guess you can for some, but not all of them. But yeah, there's definitely been a lot more stuff learned as time goes on. Yeah, and like, that's what, I don't know. Like that's like. 

Just hearing about how like obviously how God is good, faithful and all that, he's always going to be in. he's always going to take care of US one way or another. So it's like i've you know, you'll hear it where it's like, you know there's no reason to be anxious or have all these other things that. I mean, yes, like, I mean we're told not to be anxious, but obviously to some degree we always will get anxious from time to time about something. 

Right. Right. Anybody. 

So I guess it's one of those things where it's like, I don't know, it just, I don't know, it just sits weird with me where people talk about like, you know, obviously, well, you've mentioned this before where i've like people say, well, if you're a Christian, like there's no reason to be depressed or. Have any of these other. Well, I mean, you basically just said that already. But yeah, you literally just did say that. Now it's like when they talk about it like that's like, it's so weird to me where people just have the mindset like there's no need for or there's no reason to ever feel these way, feel this way if you are a Christian. 

But then even if you read back in, like in the Bible, well, this isn't the Bible. No, that's the Bible. It is definitely not the Bible. it's not a Bible. Reading back in the like the Bible stories and stuff. it's like all these people that followed God all had their struggles and moments, right. 

So it's to say that we shouldn't I don't know, feel it's a human response. Like what? To some degree it's like you can't change that. I guess it's where do you go with it, right? 

Yes. No, maybe so. I don't know. Yeah, I guess it comes to the point of where do you let it just overtake you and you dwell on it and let it get a hold of your mind and change your mindset and where you, you know, either avoid or turn your back on God per southeast or do you bring it to him and get help through it and with it and get over it? I don't know. 

Whatever. OK I I get what you're saying though. That is, yeah, that's what I said. We would have words. We wouldn't come to fisticuffs, but throwing some fists, we'd be no, no throwing a fist. Have a civil discussion. there's no need for fist throwing in this, not in this, no, no, not at all. There. I think there's ways to have that conversation and have it appropriately and have it maturely, whatever, yes. 

All right, now aaron 's going to tell us about the how adoption is the basis for our life. Now I am. That is packer 's next segment where he says adoption, the basis for our life. 

Yeah, this one is where he starts getting into Christian conduct and prayer and life of faith. And he goes what adoption shows us. So I don't know if you have anything in in all this where you highlighted, the only thing that I highlighted was under Christian conduct, where he says Christians must seek to behave in public in a way that brings praise to their Father in heaven. Their constant concern must be that which they are taught to voice at the outset of all their prayers. Our Father hallowed be your name. 

I was like interesting. And this is in like a list of points he has. So the first one being, yes, the Christian conduct. So number one is imitating the Father, number two of glorifying the fire, number three pleasing the Father. So again, for those people who have no concept of what a physical Father is to them, they might have a little trouble following along with this concept of why you would do this. 

Because, right. Like imitating the fire, for example. Right. Yeah. Well, I guess. Who do you imitate? Yeah. But I mean, let's be honest here. 

You definitely have taken over some of the habits of your own. Shut up. Yes, definitely have. OK hundred percent I wasn't even going for that. I was going easy one to go for. 

I was going to the motorcycles, the guns, the smoke, the cigar and pipes. Spending habits. Yeah, you know, stuff you like to watch on TV Movies you like to. You like to. You like the drag racing with him. You like some of those old movies. 

The black and whites. Yeah. OK just get out of here. Right. Leave me alone. 

Oh, oh, you're you're using his camera tripod. All right. you've gone too far. Yeah, but in my runway. you're not wrong. i'm not wrong. No, you're right. OK so see. Yes. Imitation. Yes. Yes. 

i'm like, yeah, fine, whatever. Whatever. Yeah. 

So. But yeah, you definitely are a Johnson. Yeah. 

Yep. What? No, I am. I am. I can't tell you how many times i've talked with you about something and you go, i'm just like the old man. i'm just. i'm just like my old man. Uh huh. 

Good and bad. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, huh. Yeah. Yeah. 

there's things to work on. So, see? Imitation. Yep. that's there. Yep. 

Yep. What are y'all like? Yep. Yep. what's the next one? 

Just kidding. So then he talks about Christian prayer, about how adoption models that and in the Sermon on the Mount and all that. i'm like, I think you're stretching, but OK wait for what? For prayer. What about it? Because, he says, adoption appears in the sermon as the basis of Christian prayer. 

I was like, I think you're you're stretching a little bit on this one, but you can have your point. that's fine. The Sermon on the Mount is what he's referring to. So he's saying adoption appears in the Sermon on the Mount as the basis of Christian prayer. i'm like kind of pulling at that one a little bit. And then again he says adoption appears in Sermon on the Mount as the basis of the life of faith. 

And you know, in in here he's basically going on. He he pulls us out. He goes, do not worry about your life, says the Lord. What will you eat or drink or about your body? What will you wear? But says someone, But says someone, this is not realistic. 

How can I help worrying when i'm when I face this and this and this, to which Jesus replies, your faith is too small. Have you forgotten that God is your father? You know, basically he's going on about. Like, for example, you know, ten years from now. 

Yeah, you're married, have the five children, three more on the way and you're like, how am I going to pay these bills? The Packers are going, oh, don't worry about it, That, that that is such a weird. Obviously that's an extreme situation, you with your kids. But yes, I mean, you should be up to ten by then. 

i'm not making up for Josh and this. No, no, no, no, no. Josh and me, You better start your schooling, boy. Yeah, right. No, just kidding. that'll well, that's something that'll be interesting to get into for the next chapter. 

But that is that's like such a weird thing. What? Because it's like you don't want to just be, in a sense, reckless. 

Obviously God is always going to provide for you, but there's also consequences for actions that you make right. And like you were pointing out earlier, we do have brains to be able to think through things, and we can realize that there are consequences on things when we take them. You know, if you're going to take, if you're going to bring in our kid into the world, guess what? you're going to have to feed them, pay for their schooling, pay for, right. All that stuff, right. And that's where it's wondering. 

it's like for the people that say, obviously that God will provide for you, I mean, I don't know. that's just such AI guess. Interesting. 

i'm not saying God doesn't provide she. But i'm going to say this as well. Unlike in the times of the New Testament, when, and i'm not saying there weren't beggars or people on the outs or poor in that time, there were. There definitely were. And you could say in the US our poorest poor are richer than those in in our parts of the world. Which is true, yes, But we still have children, elderly, sick, lame, who are suffering because they don't have access to resources, be that food, money, eat, whatever. 

They do need assistance in some way, right? And if you and this is I guess where someone can come back at at me and go, well, Paul, you're just not being one of faith. You know, if I look at my finances, let's say I have like two kids, right? And I look at my finance and go, man, we're just barely making it now. Yeah, it'd be crazy to bring a third, love a third. But it'd be crazy finance wise, right? It would go, let's do it. 

We have to realize there's going to be some potential consequences where we go into debt more, where we're going to have to take out loans, where we're going to have there's going to be things and maybe God will help, you know, ease that this gets into some other things. I think in the next chapter as well where it's one of those things of where we can go, we can do this but realize there might be consequences of it. And we're just over relying on this simple thing where we're saying, oh, God told me to go and have this third kid and what and where we talk it in the next chapter talks about that specifically. Right. And that's let's say I don't know it and where I where I think nineteen twenty kind of contradicts each other in a little bit ways, but we'll go on with that, right. What were you going to say? Well, no, yeah. I don't know. I was thinking for like, for some things, it's like that's where for those that say to wait and pray, wait on God and pray and have prayer and stuff and like all that, that just gives me the idea. 

it's like you need some like supernatural some sort of like just sign saying do this and it's just like, I don't know. Yeah, OK It just hurts my brain. A lot of things hurt my brain. But yeah. And the example they use of of of trust, it's a very simplistic one. 

Here we might have a crash. So the small girl anxiously as the family car threaded its way through traffic. Trust daddy. he's a good driver. Said that mommy. The young lady was reassured and she relaxed at once. You trust your Heavenly Father like that? If not, why not? 

Such trust is vital. It is in truth the mainspring of the life of faith, which without it becomes a life of at least partial unbelief. I feel like trusting God with your life versus trusting your dad in a scary driving situation is very different. 

Yes and no. Yes and and he's using this as a simplistic example, Yes. Yes. I trust God with my life and that my life, my soul. that's different than let's say i've had no money, no job, no prospects of any kind. I was suffering. that's different than someone going for where am I going to get the next meal for my kids or for me slightly different because the the the food thing that's temporal, that's here and now that's immediate moment thing, trusting with my soul and my life. 

that's an eternity thing, right. Yeah. So. So that, that well, as far as that goes, yes. Yeah. So that that's why I think of them in my head differently because. 

You know, sometimes the answer is or there is no answer for those immediate temporal problems, right. But but you're well, you're not saying that you don't trust them though. No, i'm not. 

i'm not saying that. But because what he's going back in here in this, in this part of his chapter of his book, is he goes back to the verses saying, you know, you know, referring back to, oh, God takes care of the birds. isn't he going to take care of you even more that that's not a guaranteed promise because prosperity gospel people pull that out and use that. 

it's not, it's it's descriptive, not prescriptive. Just like I told my mom the same thing about the Daniel Diet. I was like, that's descriptive, not prescriptive. Do you know what that means? Descriptive, not prescriptive. 

what's prescriptive? it's something that a doctor gives you to help you out. it's a prescription. Yeah. it's like you should follow this, whatever this is, whether it's taking a medicine or take going through this regimen or whatever, right? Descriptive is hey this is what happened during this. 

In other words, it's used only the small amount of time, right? But it takes up about ten percent of the book to talk about adoption. Yeah. 

Sounds like really Packer, drive Me Nuts buddy. And then beating the dead horse. Let me ask you this. Yeah. Do you agree with his what he says his focus of the New Testament is he goes where I asked to focus the New Testament message in three words. My proposal would be adoption through propitiation. Hey everybody, we're going to cut it there for this week 's episode the reason being we still got at least another hour of before i edit it at least to go so i figure we're going to break this up into two weeks and we'll continue the rest of chapter nineteen here next week and chapter twenty as Well. where we finished talking about some more things here but yeah let us know what do you do you agree with packer on what he's saying with some of these things on adoption and adoption through propitiation that adoption is the key essentially in packers that he calls it the highest blessing of the gospel you know let me know let me know what your thoughts are whether you fully agree with packer where you don't agree that that's up to you i'm kind of somewhere in that middle ground and you know i have to realize that you know i might have a misreading of packer 's words and that maybe you know down the road when i read through this book again maybe i'll rethink it through it's always a possibility don't know but let me know what your thoughts are on it let me know what you think of packer 's book and i know it's a very meaty heavy book so it's not the easiest thing to get through if you don't want to read the actual physical book it is available on audiobook so you can go listen to it that way makes it a little bit easier especially if you're a little bit older you can just kind of lean back in the chair and listen to it be read to you all right well we'll catch you next week before we continue the rest of chapter nineteen and chapter twenty as well and then the week after that well Yeah, you'll just have to wait and see.