ABC: Knowing God Chapters 17 & 18

And now for round two of this, since my last recording, as I said, didn't work. So we're back here once again with Aaron doing chapter 17 and 18 again of knowing God. by J .I. Packer. So I'll say this in advance, if like for whatever reason, me or Aaron seem to like skim over a point or skip something because we've had this conversation before we're having this conversation again and then We're not exactly sure what we rehashed last time and if we're rehashing the same thing or if our brain is just saying oh yeah we already talked about this move forward. or not. Hey, sorry. My brain's gone. This is what happens when you try to do remote things sometimes and remote things don't work and then And well, you're here stuck with this trying to figure out, hey, how do we do this and what we do? And you end up with me recording a solo thing and make the picture as something goes out. 

And which was timely because I got to talk about October being depression awareness month. So hey, there it is. Yes, yes it is. So that was what I put out last week or two weeks ago when this comes out since we were bookless both. at that time. Bookless. Bookless. So, so I said, if some if some of the conversation does Hello, right, our slow is weird. That's why sorry. Yeah. That was only so which much. we can do. So with that being said, we're going to go ahead and start with chapter 17 of knowing God. Yeah. We What's the chapter? What's the name of this chapter, Aaron? 

It's something about jealousy. The jealous God. It's something about jealousy. Yes, or translated into the vernacular of your youth, the God who is jealous. Ali. Oh my gosh. Oh no. I don't like it either. 

I did like it. This is a game on my mouth. I was translated into the common parlance of youth. the The I'd man the length of I watched a video of with with my nephew the oldest one. of this guy like seeing if you can guess like the Gen Z terminology and stuff like that and define it and just the word man. 

I had the sad thing is I can translate 99 % of that. Yeah. Without up any issue. Why? I don't know. We really know. I just pick it up like working with a youth group in the Oh, yeah, that makes sense. So I can translate it just fine. Like you, you would, if you were to give me that quiz, that that video. 

I feel like, oh yeah, it means this means this means this means this. I think the like, Oh yeah. Stupid. Drip. Yep, stupid. I like touch grass. I like that. Oh man, I know all these and then the easiest one and I was surprised that the guy didn't know this one by a new right away. 

Okay, this is Bob. I love Bob. That's a good one, man. Yeah. So, but yeah, there was there was all the ones I don't even remember what they were. 

You have to send me like the to have a video, I see if I can translate them all. Yeah, that's just my goodness, dude. Sad thing is I can probably translate them all. Anywho, speak out translate. Yeah, let's see if you could define a few words. No. I don't know if I asked you any of these ones before. So you can forget about it again. What's the Pentatook? Five books of Bible. First. Good job. I'm gonna go that one. How do you remember pen? to Duke. Because Penta, meaning five. Okay. And so I just knew as the first five books of the Bible. Okay. Yeah. Gotcha. That's all I know. Yeah. That's actually important to know and good to know. What about transcendent? Always think like of it being like beyond like beyond like like comprehension or or I think of something transcendent. 

This is real simple. Is it really? Yeah. What is it? Start passing the ordinary, order. exceptional. That's it beyond our brain of normal or merely physical human experience. Yeah. It sounds so much more epic than that. Transcendent. Transcendent. Transcendent. Okay, so exceptional. Okay. What about Capricion? this. Oh, I think I looked that one up. 

I don't remember what it was though. You don't remember? No. Well, I mean, I was like a week ago. That was a few ス weeks ago. 

何 思 った まで か 手 作 る given to sudden and unaccountable changes of mood or behavior. Ah, okay. A capricious climate, a capricious and often brutal administer. frustration. I like that one. Good gracious. Go pre -shoot. You it get we're all right like it per cad a he could pre -order sent at some certain times getting before day recalling me There's with you. 

some people I don't know what don't get capricious. Yeah, yeah, you're right. What about your release? 

your religion, your religion, I -R -R -E -L -I -G -I -O -N. Your religion. You could also use a your religious. By the way, I'm asking you to define words. because I found them both chapters right now. 

Just so we don't have to stop while we're going through two chapters. Okay. Yeah. Uh, I guess I I would have to read it with the sentence, but otherwise, off the time I don't know. In a situation where we did not love him and that And there was nothing about us to move him to do anything other than blast and blight us for our ingrained eerie religion. 

He loved us and sent his son to be the the propitiation for our sins. Your religion. Yep. Because it doesn't have to do with having a lack of religion, doesn't or Is is it? it just being so like focused on religion? 

Ooh, you're like two different odds, intents of a spec. from here. Yeah. Which one are you picking? 

Let's say so like focused only on religion. No, it is it's just a lack of religion. No, it's indifferent or hostile hostile to or religion. Oh, well, so he's having nothing to do with it. Yeah, but it's not so much having nothing to do with it, but it's also against it. Yeah, you're out. Okay. Okay. All right. So I'll still towards. 

Yeah, and then this one is going to to. be. Oh no. Why do you go oh no? That's just how you how you set it up makes me nervous for it. I don't even know if I can say this word. See exactly. Oh, no. Go now. Known in a입니다an impzgetsia So now I am PUT at I .O .N. 

I do not remember. Nope. One or the definitely had to look that one up. You didn't Yeah, huh? I would have had to, but I do not remember what that is. Okay. I'm not, well, you just spelled it, I guess. 

Okay, so imputation, IMPU TAT ION. Right. Dnotes in attributing of something to a person or charging of one with anything or settling of someone to one. account. So obviously none is the inverse of that. Right. Okay, so that okay. 

Yeah, well, now get a little more clear maybe when we talk kind of the context around that word there, but that one I saw that I was like, oh, there's no way I like I know I've heard before it. but it's definitely one of those words of like no and we don't use that in normal language. Yeah. It's fancy. People use big words. Like when I see someone like that, I expect to see someone in a suit who's trying to talk to me me. and personally if I see someone suit talking to me I go okay that's nice cool uh don't care I sorry, it's this whole thing on Twitter right now like this whole thing of like Christian men. 

Why do you not dress like this and it's like showing all these guys and suits like lifting barbells and all that. that. Like, and I'm like, I wrote back and I was like, because suits don't impact the way that we talk or the way that we earn respect. Right. Yeah, that's our whole fun thing. 

All these people who are like, no, you have to wear suits everywhere. Like everywhere. Yeah. They're like yeah, you have to wear suits all the time because that's the only way to spread the gospel I was like, I think you're putting a little legalism in here, buddy. Oh, don't yeah It makes no sense. But, okay. Anyways, so those are the words that will come up and we'll continue to have Aaron define things for us as well. Cheese. What? Proof. This is going to be worse than last time. 

Well, I've also had more time to mold. on it and process it and chew on it more. So chapter 17 is called the Gelska. And the first sentence right away in It a kind of sets the tone for it from the outset of people who read it who maybe don't have a the book of understanding of God. And the first time it goes, the jealous God doesn't it sound offensive. 

For we know jealousy, the greenine monster as a vice one of the most cancers and soul destroying vices that there is. That's where you asked me. If I've ever heard of the green -eyed monster and I was like, nope. Yep, so jealousy is just that that's what the green -eyed monster This is. is just the nickname for jealousy. Why? As curious as why do you use green? Why do you use green for jealousy? 

Yeah, you know, I don't know that one. Here's why probably okay in renaissance England Most motions were matched with colors. Green was matched with envy and jealousy. Yeah, envy. Okay, I mean, yeah, that should kind of, yeah, that does make sense. Portia refers directly to green eyed jealousy and then The in later play Othello, Shakespeare turns it into an even more visual idea, making it a monster, suggesting that it is powerful and dangerous. So you asked the question why green eyed why green there it is that's exactly why by Ophello, it shakes beer, plays. Thanks. They form, they form us in more ways in our culture than And we know for real though, oh so many things in culture formed by that. 

It's kind of actually ridiculous. But anyway, So yeah, so when we think about jealousy in the nature of things, in the order of things that normally go go on. We think of jealousy as we as humans and counter jealousy. Right. We think of jealousy as As man, I am Aaron got this job and man, I'm jealous of it. All right. You can swear to me. 

Sorry, you can have the pressure, mine. If I knew how to do it, sir, but I don't even know. I don't even know. You're like, I don't even know what you're doing. Nope. Yeah, well, you can have it if you want. 

If I had the knowledge you had, though, And then I still worked where I worked, I would be very upset. Yeah, I would be very upset with you too. That's special because of your I didn't share that with you earlier but I'll share it with you now that's the salary. Dang. Yeah. Solid. So by the way, now the six. 

Yeah, still still yeah hot dig it. So about what four times what you make. Yeah. No, not trying to bring anything, but I mean, you know, that might bring up the green eyed jealous monster and you. Well, yeah, thanks Paul. But in human terms, yeah, we're jealous. 

We're we're coveting what others have that we don't have. Covening. Where we heard that. for thisness. That's back in I don't know let's see here um oh yeah 10 commandments. 

Oh yeah Yeah, okay. Yeah, I was just sure I was like, we're gonna pull something from the beginning and beginning of it. Yeah, we're gonna go Genesis zero one, you know, the unwritten. Oh, No. do nice. No, no, no, no, no, no. So we have to say did did did were you approached in the dream and brought that? 

to bring back script for that we didn't know about. No. Okay, good. That's a whole other, yeah. Yeah, good. If you're wondering when Aaron's talking about go look at a couple weeks ago when we talked about three bad. had Bible translations. Yeah. That would be the... Was that the passion one? 

That was the passion one. Yeah, that's right. Yep. So, yeah. So, when we talk about jealousy, right, you know, that's when we talk about that in human terms, right? And the Bible, it does say here, Um, uh, you know, as Packer points out, biblical statements about God's jealousy or what? What are they? They're anthropomorphic. more thick. Ah, what's anthem from more thick? Yes. Okay, and I know, like, I, it's that one's still kind of with me because I like that one a multiple. 

A couple of times. Okay. I have to do with like, is it like something about like human characteristics being Like used towards God or something or like added. How do I how I do I. say it, but it's like human characteristics. Okay. Human characteristics. What? Is that we associate with God? Well, okay. So anthropomorphic means in general. Yeah. And this could be... In general, is human characteristics or motions or actions or anything like that, right? 

Assigned to something that is non -human. human. Okay. So in this case, in this case, we're saying God's jealousy is anthropomorphic because we're attributing how we interpret jealousy. and applying the word association with that to God, right? Where God's jealousy is pure and perfect, jealousy, different than the jealousy that we They would. 

have, but that's that's the easy way for us to understand it. Because it is anthropomorphicized. Now you can anthropomorphize a gun, a book, whatever. Okay, but in this case what Packer saying is jealousy and through humor the size. 

Okay, because we can still have a Okay. Good type of jealousy and I see it still. Right. Okay. Yeah. And that's the next point to pack makes. them. Is it there's two types of jealousy? Yes. Exactly. Good job. Dude, it's like I almost remember or something. Yeah. And like Faker says, only one is a vice. Now what are the two differences that he of jealousy that Packard depicts here in his book? What is the coffee? 

the chisness, the coveting jealousy were the angry I want for me. Uh -huh. But then there's the jealousy of of protecting a relationship, like a love relationship sort of thing. Yeah. Like a husband getting upset if his wife cheats. Yes. Yep. And so which one of those is attributed to God, per packer that is a good and holy. 

Holy the second one. Okay, good job. Yeah. I'm learning. In Ezekiel 16, God depicts Israel as his adulterous wife. life. Embroiled in a holy liaisons with idols and idolaters of Canaan, Egypt, and Assyria, and pronounced sentence as follows, I will judge you as women who break wet and blood. 

shed blood, our judge, and bring upon you the blood of wrath and jealousy. That's first, that's Ezekiel 1638 in the RSV. and does say compare with verses 4 to 23 and 25. So, you know, that's what it says in there. So that's when it says God is a jealous God. He is jealous for his people. In this case, you know, in the Old Testament, we're talking Israel. to you. That they keep going off after these hours and if we look at the history of Israel, Israel was bad at that. 

Start with the Golden Calf and just just kept going, hey, I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. Let's go after it. 

We anything but God. Exactly. And just over and over again. Even though Okay, they see what God can do. What see what God can do? See what God can do. And then they keep going, nope, we want this because it's convenient and it keeps causing issues. 

is throughout all of Israel's history. So what we see here in Packersbook he says, so God's jealousy leads him And on the one hand to judge and destroy the faith of some mungus people who fall into idolatry and sin Deuteronomy 614 to 15 both Joshua's 24 19s and 20s, Sephiria 118. And indeed to judge the enemies of Rechnis and Mercy elsewhere, Nehum 12. Ezekiel 3657, ZF 38. It also leads him on the other hand to restore his people after National Judgment has chastened. and humbled them. And what is this? What is it that motivates these accusations? These actions? and sign accusations, these actions simply fact that he is jealous for his holy name, Ezekiel 3925. 

His name is his nature and character as Jehovah. I was like, okay. Okay. In, in, I'll, I'll make chapter 17 is probably one of the first chapters that hackers done where I'm like, I don't have You any. think they can save on packer. Congratulations. Go ahead, anything what? Negative to say like about the chapter, you know? Gotcha. OK. I'm like, yeah, Packer's got a pre -write on the there. head. Is there anything in particular that stood out in chapter 17? 

It's a pretty short chapter. Yeah. And in all things because it's just talking about this one concept, it's an important concept. I'm not saying just because This of is short chapter. It's not important. It is important even at its shortness. Or as is how would you younger people say it for a short person who I'm not obviously not short chat for a short person who's still important oh yeah you call them short -camera. 

things for short queens. I've never heard that. Like short people who like they still want to like, they're like, oh, you go on you short king because. I have not heard that's awesome. Of course in society nowadays short is considered like any like for a guy under six foot. But we'll dang. That sucks. Yeah, it's one of those weird things, you But know. 

no, I'm surprised you never heard that like yeah, they'll say that like a guy who's like 5 5 and like the girls pass over him It's always like on the social media video And all I know what I'm seeing the Josh Brewer. Yep. Well, at least he's got a short Queen then too anyway, so she keeps them in line. Yeah, yes. But anyways, back to jealousy. Well saying this just has to go with the anthropomorphic. or fizz, zums, zums. Yeah. Because that was one thing it was like, so the bottom of the page is sus for instance, his rat. 

is not the ignoble outburst that human anger so often is a sign of pride and weakness but it is holiness reaching, written reaching, Oh, wow. wow, correction, reacting to evil in the way that is morally right and glorious. Because that's... That's, I'm, I know that's always a big thing or is it well a big, I don't know, issue that people have with God as far as like having wrath. nothing stuff like that and say, well, how could he be like that if he's a good God sort of thing? It's like that. Yeah, it's the anthropomorphism where we're interpreting it in human ways. 

is, uh, Packard does say when the language of human personal life is used on God, of God, none of the limitations of human creaturehood are thereby there. being implied in our words how the limits of how we do wrath jealousy whatever Never are not applied for God because well, well, he's got he created us so he can part. Yeah. And you can't have anything unholy in his presence. So therefore, can't be done out to be a wholeness. Mm hmm. So that was that was one of the first things out on the. 

There's probably just something later on. Is it in 17 or is it still in 17? Yeah, that's what I was asking about. Okay. So the gazelles man, I'll just go from kind of the, I guess beginning of this I suppose. 

So, as a Zellus man in religion is preemnantly a man of one thing, it is not enough. I have to say that he is earnest, hearty, uncompromising, thorough going. It's like that one. A whole hearted but fervent and spirit. 

He only sees one thing. He cares for one thing. He lives for one thing thing. is swallowed up in one thing and that one thing is to please God. And that's it. That's... I think more than I just wrote down like this kind of a zeal. 

It's definitely been lost. lost. Well, yeah, it's been lost. Yeah, especially in the good old Murrow. Farrakas. Oh yeah. Yeah. And good old America. Yeah. Anything else in 17? 

All right, then we get into the long, long, long chapter of 18. Yeah, I know. But But if he had a summarize chapter 18 and one word, what would it be? Propagiation. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think we can end the recording right that. No, no. Look it up and we'll be good. 

You'll know what we're talking about. All right. So chapter 18 starts the last segment. of the book called If God Be For Us. And chapter 18 is called the Heart of the Gospel, which appropriately is the word, So, propriciation as we talked about earlier is what? 

Oh, actually, no, I don't think I had you. You had defined that. Did I? No, you did not. No, I did not. Oh. Oh gosh, that's really, that's really unfortunate. Yeah, it is. I had it at the beginning, but now It I slips in my mind. So Aaron, what is propitiation mean? 

Okay, so it has to do so with so Jesus Christ This is the propitiation. Well, propitiation or whatever. He is propitiation. patient for our sense. Yes. Yes. So that being he has I guess kind like of it made it so we don't have I guess we don't experience the wrath of God and it's like paid are debt for our sins or the thing. 

Okay, yeah, so you I was gonna ask something and you kind of went right into it is enough for me to be able to not have... I have to ask my question. So my question is going to be like, because you were saying not have wrath of God, right? And my question was going to be if you would have stopped there. Why? And you come. Okay. So you went into it. So the propitiation is basically an old term. 

I'm outside of Christianity even because you have this in the pagan religion as well. Appreciate this. where essentially it's an appeasing of a God spirit or person. Prophecyation in the Christian tradition is is composed of not only propitiation but expiation. Expiation, expiation. Yeah, I cannot talk these days. That's tough man. Expiation. Expiation. So, expiation is different than propitiation. Which... Right. Okay. Okay. The expiation that's just paying off. 

Yeah, it's just the covering of the sin. The sin and guilt. right. The propitiation is not only the paying off, but also the appeasing. 

Yes, that's yeah, that was that That's the way I'm using. So yeah, it's just like, oh man, what is... What's the difference right? I didn't... For this chapter alone, I would recommend picking up the book, the segment not merely the exposition because he goes into and talks about how there's kind of this, I guess you could say scholarly debate sort of deal. Like should these words be translated as expiation and these propitiation and what parts of the new testament blah blah blah blah. Oh. Read it. It's not going to change a ton. 

I think of the New Testament or anything like that or your understanding of But it. yeah, should we translate the New Testament correctly if it's propitiation or expiation? Yes, we should. I'm not saying don't translate the words correct. But ultimately, where they're having their little scholarly disagreements, I'm That too concerned about, you know, let it be scholar, disagreement. 

He's not calling out the our person that he disagrees with his like, life. which in this case the person named is Dodd that like they're a heretic or anything. He's just like, I think he's making a You wrong know, it's a gracious one. So he says, God has labored to prove that propitiation word group in the New Testament does not carry the sense of appeasing God's anger, but only denotes the putting away a sin, and therefore, expitiation is a better rendering in the RSV and NEB at this point reflect his view. Okay. And it goes on does he make out his case? 

We cannot hear go into the tech counties of as what much scholars discussion. But for what is worth, we give our own verdict. That it appears has shown that this word group need not be more than expiation if the context is not required while you're meeting. But he has not shown that the word group cannot mean propitiation and context and it just goes on. I'm like, Okay, oh, yep, I get it. It's definitely a scholar debate. 

Not too crazy of a thing. All you need to know though that there is a difference between the two words, propitiation, expitiation. So if you see balls, You know, you might see it intermingled in some translations or some content. Next up conversation. You just have to know the main differences. Are you talking about just the covering of this and are you talking about the covering and a piece? because that's what Christ did on the cross is the appeasement. And if you do read on earlier on in the the chapter he talks about paying in propitiation and all that but he just you know it's a little segment to to it how pagans would essentially do sacrifices in hopes of appeasing. in their God. They don't know if it would work or not. 

Oh, we'll sacrifice this virgin in the volcano. Maybe you'll make our God happy or we're going to pull out this person's heart while still being maybe you'll I make think the Scott happy minds did that. And then it didn't. Well, yeah, you know, yeah, exactly. So they did it out of maybe. maybe, maybe, maybe, whereas we know Christ died on the cross and it did a piece. So there's a big difference there. there between them. So you don't have to spend a ton of time on like, oh, what's the difference between appreciation between pagans and non -pagans and Christians? And it's certainty versus uncertainty. 

Yeah, it's a big difference. It's a hope versus a... Staging curve. Yes, exactly. So I mean, like I said, for the not merely exposition part. 

At least read that chapter, but yeah, there's a lot in there that if you just read it the first time, you might glaze over on your eyes and Like, be able to read it. what did I just read? That's me. Was it also the same like year third and fourth and fifth time? I mean, yes. Just some degree. Yeah. Yeah, fair enough. Something's got a little bit better. But there's a lot in there and there's a lot to digest. So if you have to take a paragraph at time, rest today and then take the next. 

that's how you have to get through some of these wordings, then that's how you have to get through some of those words. He's definitely, uh, this is, this book has been quite unlike anything. else I've read before. Hey, you chose the book. I did. And you're actually continuing and keeping up with it. I'm impressed. rest you too for the most part. But all right. Yeah, another thing that he notes here in in the chapter is he says this in paganism, you because know, we're talking about how, you know, it's, well, the gods, we appease, won't they, whatever. 

He wrote, and paganism man propitiates his gods, you know, seeks the appeasement of the anger from his gods and religion becomes a form of commercialism and indeed of bribery. That's good imagery there. around it. A bribery. Please take this and if I give you this, if I give you my daughter, if I give you my wife, if I give you all my money, if I give you this, Yes, will you please be happy with me? Very. Right. Whereas what's God said, we can't give anything. Nope. It's we just receive in this. 

But, uh, and that's I guess it's what it comes down. I guess for a genuine faith where it's like we like want to have I have no, like, uh, well, we want to be obedient to him. Sort of thing, but it's not. Yeah. Right, I don't know. I guess I'm thinking of like when you go into the whole, the your works don't make your fail. but your faith with always that James passage darn it. So let's walk I'm hoping. 

This is the right spot, but the title of the section makes me think it is where its faith without works is dead. So what good is it my brothers someone says. He has faith but does not have works can that faith save him if a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food and one of you says to them go. Go in peace, be warm and filled without giving the things they need. They needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself. 

If it does not have works is dead, so okay, so that, but then some will say you have faith and I have works show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one, you do what you believe that God is one, you do well, even the demons believe in cheddar, okay, do you want to be shown? Do you want to be shown you foolish person there? that faith apart from works is useless. Oh gosh, am I just going to end up reading this whole thing? Okay, so you read the faith without works is that so? agreement? Yeah. Okay. You see that? Faith was active along with the his works and faith was completed by his works. And the scripture was fulfilled as Abraham believed. God. God, and it was kind to him as righteousness. 

He was also a friend of God. Okay. Maybe we Hopefully, don't know. I don't know. Did I have the right to pop? No. This is a we don't have to do anything to a piece God. Or accept that faith in Christ, but yes, right. 

Yeah, Christ is Yes, yes, but by yeah again like we can't do anything work wise to make God happy with us. Right. But out of our faith and love for him, we choose to, I, I guess live for him, serve him sort of thing. Okay, so by our faith, right, we believe in Christ. Yes, we ask him to be our Savior, our Lord. Yes. We, you know, A traditional alter call, let's say, you know, do you believe in Christ? Yes, no. Do you want to be your Lauren? Say, for yes, no sort of deal right? Right. What happens when you choose to follow Christ when you ask him to be your savior? What happens? We're filled with the Spirit. 

What else have happens. What's the big important thing? Why is there a propitiation in that time? Wait, what else happened? And it's already happened, but it happens. What do we ask Chris to be at work? Yeah. I mean, we're forgiven. been. What what else? Not some yes we're forgiven. Yeah. Well what else happens? What's important there? Why is there a propitio? 

that works in this way. So we ask Christ's beer savior, right? Yeah, you're right. Fill for Holy Spirit. Yeah. Forgiven. Yeah. It says we're washing his blood. Right. That's the important part there. Because that's what covers us. That's what... It allows God to see us not as sinful and sinners. I was like, what else happens? 

Yeah, I don't know. All that happens. Okay. You know, those are important facts. facets of the whole conversation there, right? Okay. Because how did you do propitiation slash? 

all this in the Old Testament. Sacrifices. Sacrifices through blood sacrifices. You know, through animals, sacrifices. Not blood sacrifices specifically. But well, they were blood cyclists, whatever. But it took shedding of blood. Yes. Which is that? Yeah. which was kind of to illustrate to us that you couldn't shed enough blood to cover your own issues because hey, you're not perfect. 

You need someone Sinless to be able to cover you in that regard. And that was Christ. Yes. Right. That's how we have propitiation. That's how we have that appease. 

is meant because it is through Christ's sacrifice, shedding of his blood, not ours, which allows us, yeah. As Packer says in Christianity, God propitiates his wrath by his own actions. He sets forth Jesus Christ to be a propitiation, to be the propitiation for our sins. It was not man to whom God was hostile who took the initiative to make God friendly, nor was it Jesus Christ, the eternal Son who took the initiative to turn his father's wrath against us into love. The idea that the kind that the kind son changed the mind of his unkind father by offering himself in place of sinful man is no part of the gospel message is subcrician deed is antiquity. 

for it denies the unity of will and the Father and the Son and so in reality falls back into polytheism. Ask us to believe in two different different ways. gods. Bible rules this out absolutely by insisting that it was God himself who took the initiative and quenching his own wrath against those whom despite their ill they'll desert he loved and had chosen to save. In our words what you know and I'm tying it back to what I I've was just talking about there, but what he's saying is it wasn't, you know, God the Father was having raft. 

He's just like, Oh, I gotta save them going down. It was, it was, it was the way he's saying, is from the beginning with the fall God put into motion the put into motion the event. that led to him sending his son Christ down for us. It wasn't Christ going, I need to go. It was God saying, Oh, no. okay. I'm angry with you all. 

You send, but I'm still going to send my son down to do this. This is what's gotta be done. Yeah. As Patrick put it, the doctrine of propitiation is precisely this that God loved the objects of of his wrath so much they gave his own son to the end that he by his blood should make provision for the removal of his wrath. He was Christ so to deal. with the raft that the love would no longer be the objects of wrath and love would achieve its aim of making the children of wrath the children of gods good plan. 

That's written by John Murray from the Atonement page 15. Not Packer, but Packer is quoting him in that. is that um in here that's under profitiation described okay under point one of that oh boy i'm way way far out here Okay. I'm God. So, so when he says, Propitiation is the heart of the gospel, he's not lying. It right. Yeah. And it goes on talks about a little bit more where he says, you know, propitiation was made by the death of Jesus Christ. Christ has as we talked about, right? And then he also says, Prophecyation manifests God's righteousness. Yep. And then he goes on talk about the death of Christ and how that is the Prophecyation. 

There's like a whole segment in there. there. Just on that, obviously written in Packers signature, highly educated methodology, with a lot of scriptural writers. reference in all of this as well. So there's a lot more than because if I try to read it part of this, I'd be like read a few words, have to read a bunch of scripture references, read a few words. So I'm not going to do that right now if you're interested to go pick up the book and do that. Then it continues on. and talks about like what is peace, what about those reject God and the glory of God. So he covers a lot here under what he calls the heart of the gospel aka propitiation. But all the segments of these chapters all tie back to that one word. bird there. Which, for Aaron, I know he's still chewing. 

on the word. Well, I'm propitiated way. Yeah. Yeah. So anything else that you want to add onto this, This is quite a long chapter. It is a long one. 

Chapter 18 has a lot of meat in But it. again, it all is on the skewer, the bone of propitiation. Mm -hmm. All right. Well, I I think think there was a section that I, yeah, just a simple thing underlined. And it's within the what of those who reject God section. Okay. But it's just we never notice how much much good we enjoy through God's common grace until it's till it's taken away from us we never value health or study circumstances or friendship and respect from others. 

as we should until we have lost them. Just a simple little reminder. I'm gonna expose for me at the time when I probably underline that. How otherwise it was the whole thing about like what what is peace. Okay. And so it says what, what does this gospel of God offer us? 

If we say the piece of God, but none will demure. But if we'll all but will everyone understand the use of right words does not guarantee the right thought. thoughts too often the piece of God is thought of as if it were essentially a feeling of inner tranquility. Happy and carefree. be springing from knowledge that God will shield one from life's hardest max. But But this is a misrepresentation for on the one hand, God does not hath her bed. 

his children in this way and anyone who thinks he does is in for a shock. Prosperity Gospel people. Yes. Yes. Is there still more underlying that you got there? It was just more where it was the talks about guys. 

as peace brings us two things, power to face and live with our own badness and failings also, and also contentment under the slings and arrows. of outrageous, yeah outrageous fortune. That's about it. Okay, there was a word in there. Do you know, I want to know if you knew what it would be? No, no. Demure. Demure. Demure. As I read it. Where is it? Okay, so if we say the piece of God, no one will demeure. 

I guess like no. I hate this. I want to try and say what my brain is thinking, but I can't say what your brain I is. can't say it. It's like no one will, it's like no one will think twice about it or. I know. It doesn't say no one first office says none. Wait, what? Oh, none well, Demo. Okay. None well, Demo. There. The mirror. Uh, that means raised outs or objections or show reluctance. Right. What I, I don't even remember what I just said. 

Oh, no one would like think twice. But she's like, oh, Yeah, yeah. okay. Just take it for what it is. All right. Anything else in this chapter? No. Cool. Oh. So, but I think I like the poem at the end. 

Yeah, because that quote's from a the end. couple different songs as we learned from our first go -through. Yeah. So that's chapter 18 and 7 No one God IV P signature collection by J. I. Packer. Well, yeah, we're almost there man. 

at least on my phone, we're on page, let's see here, 200 of 290. before. Yep. It says we're 53 % through the book. It's lying. I know that much. Because... Like we're more than that. That's not 50%. That is much more than 50%. I know. I thought it's like I think it's doing its math wrong. Yeah. But so we're close, we're getting there and then soon Aaron will get to tell us what the next thing is. So we got four more chapters in this which means that this. 

It's point, do it. Yes, you're right. January will probably be our last month with this book. And then I have to find another book. book. It is Aaron's book club. 

Oh, I can always suggest books, but that's true. Yeah, you can. I can suggest books, but you ultimately have to be the one to be like, yes, no, maybe Be so. But. But. Next time that we talk to you. 

Maybe we'll have Aaron translate Gen Z sentences into English. Oh great. No. Oh, in fact, what I'll do is I'll have the youth pastor in my church write some sentences down that he says to me and have whom NC Baron can translate them. So you can understand it. Yeah. So he's talking about clubs, was up and in the house and in the room. And real how. There's some phrase. What's the difference between in the house and in the roof? You know what? I don't want to know. Yeah, we'll figure it out. It won't be a, it won't be a check up when we cover this, but hey, whatever. So for funzies. Thank you for joining us this week and I'll see you next week and then the week after we'll be traveling so maybe uh you you you